Susan Cox Powell disappeared on Dec. 7, 2009.
The day after Susan turned up missing, her four-year-old son Charlie Powell spoke to a detective from the West Valley City, Utah police department. Charlie told the detective his mommy had joined him, his little brother Braden and their dad, Susan’s husband Josh Powell, on a camping trip. But Charlie also said Susan didn’t come home. She stayed “where the crystals are.”
Charlie Powell’s interview provided police with leverage. They confronted Josh with what Charlie’d said. Josh was unfazed, stating flatly that Susan had not accompanied he and the boys on their late-night drive on the Pony Express Trail.
In the 15 years since Susan vanished, likely at the hands of Josh, many people have focused on Charlie’s mention of “crystals,” hoping that clue might lead them to Susan’s remains. They often fail to account for the fact Charlie, at such a young age, did not think or talk like an adult. They also overlook other perplexing statements made, including claims that he flew on an airplane to go camping, and visited the beach afterward.
Audio and video recordings of child forensic interviews are not public under Utah’s open records law. COLD independently obtained a copy of the Charlie Powell interview. Publication of the recording might traditionally run against journalistic ethics, but the Susan Powell case presents a unique situation. Because Charlie Powell is deceased, along with his entire family, concerns for his personal privacy are moot.
At the same time, publication of the raw Charlie Powell interview can help investigators and the public better understand the challenges Charlie’s words posed for police in 2009.
Charlie Powell interview 1
The entirety of the Charlie Powell interview conducted by West Valley City police detective Kim Waelty on Dec. 8, 2009, the day after Susan Powell was reported missing, can be viewed below.
Charlie Powell “camping”
Interpreting Charlie Powell’s words from his first forensic interview is aided by understanding some of his experiences in the months prior to his mother Susan Powell’s disappearance on Dec. 7, 2009.
Charlie is known to have gone “camping” on four dates in 2009, not counting the outing on the night Susan vanished.
On Saturday, March 14, 2009 Josh Powell took Charlie and his younger brother, Braden, on a camping trip in Utah’s West Desert. Cold overnight temperatures forced Josh and his sons to return home prematurely, by 2 a.m. on March 15. These facts are established in Susan’s emails to friends and coworkers.
On Saturday, May 2, 2009 Josh took Charlie and Braden on an overnight camping trip on the Pony Express Trail in the West Desert. Josh took photos that revealed he camped in the vicinity of Simpson Springs. The photos also so Josh explored trails leading up into the foothills of the Simpson Mountains.
On Saturday and Sunday, May 30 and 31, 2009, Josh and Susan took Charlie and Braden on a camping trip on the Pony Express Trail. Josh wanted to take the boys to hunt for geodes at the Dugway Geode Beds, but had trouble finding his way there. The family ended up looking for topaz at a private mining claim, before overnighting near Fish Springs. On the following day, they managed to locate the Dugway Geode Beds.
Susan wrote an account of the trip, which provided valuable detail about their travels.
Finally, on Saturday and Sunday, August 15 and 16, Josh and Susan camped at Dinosaur National Monument on the Utah-Colorado border. An email exchange between Josh and Susan in the days prior revealed this trip was largely Josh’s idea.
They overnighted along the Green River and a short hike up Box Canyon in the monument.
Upon returning from Dinosaur National Monument, Josh and Susan took Charlie and Braden to the Museum of Ancient Life at Thanksgiving Point in Lehi, Utah. That visit occurred on Tuesday, August 18, 2009.
Impacts of Charlie Powell’s first interview
Charlie’s talk of crystals, possibly a reference to the Dugway Geode Beds, launched West Valley City police on a search of abandoned mines scattered across the vast expanse of Utah’s West Desert region. Detectives and staff from the Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining began that effort within the first weeks following Susan’s disappearance. That effort is detailed in Cold episode 7: Scouring the Desert.
Those searches did not result in the discovery of Susan’s remains. So, three months after the first Charlie Powell interview, West Valley City police decided to give it another try.
Josh Powell had by that time abandoned his house in Utah and retreated to his father Steve Powell’s home in South Hill, Washington. West Valley detectives worked with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office to obtain a warrant that authorized deputies to seize Charlie and Braden Powell away from Josh for the purpose of attempting a second forensic interview.
Forensic interviews of children who are victims of abuse or who have witnessed trauma are not like typical police interviews. Re-interviewing children a second time can be especially difficult. In the case of the second Charlie Powell interview, it was immediately apparent Charlie had been coached not to talk about camping or his missing mother.
Charlie Powell interview 2
A video recording of Charlie Powell’s second interview at the Children’s Advocacy Center in Tacoma, Wash. on March 10, 2010 is below.
“John didn’t tell me where she got lost at”
Charlie Powell’s refusal to talk about “camping” during his second forensic interview, along with his statement about keeping things related to Susan “secret,” suggest he had been coached not to talk to police.
The only significant new development that rose from Charlie’s second interview was his assertion that his uncle John Powell knew where Susan was located. Charlie identified John as living in the same house with he, his brother, his father Josh and grandfather Steve Powell.
It is unlikely that John Powell had knowledge of Susan’s whereabouts. However, Charlie might have been unintentionally confusing his unce John with another uncle, Michael Powell, who was also living at Steve Powell’s home in early 2010. Police later came to suspect Michael might have been an accessory to Susan’s presumed murder.
Clues in the Powell family photos
Charlie Powell didn’t just talk about crystals during his first forensic interview. When asked about camping, he also said he flew on a plane to go “Dinosaur National Park City.” Charlie said on the return trip, he visited a beach.
Investigators never found any evidence to support the notion that Charlie traveled on an airplane the night Susan Powell disappeared, or that he went to a beach on the day after. These references to airplanes and a beach seemed nonsensical.
However, a review of Josh and Susan Powell’s family photo library has revealed possible explanations for what Charlie was trying to say.
Susan Powell worked at a Wells Fargo call center in the International Center, a business park immediately west of Salt Lake City International Airport. Josh and Susan’s photos show Josh routinely brought the boys to visit Susan during breaks at her job. The family would walk around a large pond adjacent to the Wells Fargo building, often feeding ducks.
On more than one occasion, the photos show Josh would conclude these visits to Susan’s work by taking Charlie to watch airplanes at a spot near the south end of a nearby airport runway.
Taken together, this evidence suggests Charlie might have associated the pond with a “beach,” and “airplanes” with his mother’s workplace. Charlie could plausibly have been attempting to tell police that Josh Powell stopped near Susan’s work on the way to go camping, and stopped there again before returning home.
Hear Charlie Powell’s words in a bonus episode of Cold: Beaches & Airplanes
Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production and mastering: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/713246/cold-searching-for-clues-about-susan-powells-death-in-her-son-charlies-police-interviews/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-1-transcript/beaches-airplanes-transcript/
