Bonus: The Causey Search


A mound of rocks sat undisturbed on a narrow mountain ridge, as it had for many years.

Human hands had stacked these rocks, but for what purpose? The dimensions of the mound were notable: roughly six feet long by three feet wide. About the size one might expect to see for a makeshift memorial placed over a clandestine grave.

This pile of rocks, unremarkable on its own, stood out when considered in context with evidence from two 1985 missing persons cases: the disappearances of Joyce Yost and Sheree Warren.

Causey Estates rock pile possible clandestine grave
An anomalous rock pile on a mountain ridge southeast of Causey Reservoir, as it appeared in May, 2023. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

COLD discovered the Causey rock pile while researching the Yost and Warren cases. The appearance of this unexplained pile of rocks on a mountain ridge a couple of miles southeast of Causey Dam prompted speculation among investigators.

Could it mark a burial site for one of these missing women?


Joyce Yost and Sheree Warren

Joyce Yost disappeared from her apartment in South Ogden, Utah on the night of Aug. 10, 1985. Evidence would later show a man who’d previously sexually assaulted Joyce, Douglas Lovell, killed her to prevent her from testifying at his upcoming trial. Lovell admitted to driving Joyce east into the mountains and leaving her body at an undiscovered location.

Joyce Yost, a 39-year-old mother of two, vanished from her apartment in South Ogden, Utah on the night of Aug. 10, 1985. Photo: Joyce Yost family

Several weeks later, on Oct. 2, 1985, Sheree Warren left an office building in Salt Lake City, Utah. She reportedly told a coworker she was headed to meet her estranged husband, Charles Warren, at a nearby car dealership. Sheree then planned to take her 3-year-old son to her parents’ house in the community of Roy, a suburb of Ogden, Utah.

Sheree didn’t make it home that night, or ever again. Six weeks later, her maroon Toyota Corolla surfaced behind the Aladdin Hotel and Casino on the Las Vegas Strip. Police couldn’t say how the car ended up there, or what might’ve happened to Sheree.

Sheree Warren, a 25-year-old mother co-parenting a 3-year-old son while going through a divorce, was last seen Oct. 2, 1985 outside an office building in Salt Lake City, Utah. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Roy police, who led the investigation into Sheree Warren’s disappearance, harbored suspicions about two men. They investigated her estranged husband, Charles Warren, who had a history of domestic violence against his first wife. Detectives also wondered if Cary Hartmann, a former Ogden Police reserve officer whom Sheree had been dating, might’ve been somehow involved.

But why would investigators presume to look for either of these women near Causey, a small and somewhat obscure reservoir tucked into a narrow canyon 20 miles east of Ogden?


The Case for Causey

An anonymous man called Roy City on April 3, 1987, roughly a year-and-a-half following the Joyce Yost and Sheree Warren disappearances. The man told a dispatcher he’d located a body. Upon learning the body sat outside Roy’s boundaries, the dispatcher instructed the man to instead call the Weber County Sheriff’s Office.

The anonymous caller did so. In a stammering voice, the man explained he’d been searching for “rock sediments” in the mountains near Causey Dam when he’d stumbled upon the decomposed remains of a woman.

Causey Reservoir bank shoreline canyon
Causey Dam impounds the South Fork Ogden River. Several trails access the steep shores of the reservoir, as seen here on Sept. 18, 2022. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

“I didn’t touch the body or anything because I didn’t want to get fingerprints on it,” the man said according to a recording of the call, “but I noticed there was a purse there.”

Dispatcher Sheli Tracy pressed the anonymous man for details, but the man remained vague. He said only that to reach the spot he’d parked at the dam and gone 2 or 3 miles back, crossing a “couple of ravines” to an area that very few people go into. Tracy asked the caller to remain on the line while she grabbed another person more familiar with the area. The caller agreed to wait, but hung up when briefly placed on hold.

Winter snow still covered the mountains around Causey at that time in early 1987. Police made a preliminary search within days of receiving the anonymous call, but were not able to go far beyond Causey Reservoir.

Searchers tried again two months later, in June.  By that time, police in Ogden had identified Sheree Warren’s boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, as a suspect in a years-long string of sexual assaults. In May of 1987, the Weber County Attorney’s Office filed felony charges against Hartmann in connection with four of those cases. Ogden police arrested Hartmann on a warrant, and word of his arrest made the news.

As the story of Hartmann’s arrest spread, new witnesses began coming forward. Some of them claimed Hartmann and Sheree Warren had been together on the night Warren disappeared.

Detectives from Ogden and Roy also learned Hartmann had at least three close personal friends who owned lots in Causey Estates, a cabin subdivision adjacent to Causey Reservoir.


A brief history of Causey Estates

Access to the mountainous area surrounding modern-day Causey Reservoir has long proved difficult.

The first known vehicle crossing of the mountain south and east of Causey occurred in September, 1924. A story published in the Ogden Standard-Examiner described a journey by two surveyors who were seeking to find a shorter route between the cities of Ogden, Utah and Evanston, Wyoming.

“In the county truck they turned off the main highway at Devil’s Slide, went up Lost Creek and then north to Magpie Flat,” the story read, “westward across the flat and down Magpie Canyon to South Fork Canyon, just above Ogden.”

Ten years later, in 1934, an engineer-turned-rancher named Irvin Jacob purchased the majority of that same mountain. Jacob managed the land through his company, Basin Land and Livestock. In the years that followed, Basin Land and Livestock improved the primitive route through Magpie Canyon, using it to shuttle sheep herds to summer range high on a plateau known as Magpie Flat.

Historical maps and aerial photographs show as far back as the 1940s, an unimproved ranch road crossed Skull Crack Canyon, which is today home to Causey Estates. That road traversed Skull Crack from west to east, climbing out of the canyon by way of an unnamed ridge.

Skull Crack Canyon aerial image 1953
This June 25, 1953 U.S. government aerial photograph shows Skull Crack Canyon. A sheep herder road connecting South Fork Canyon to Magpie Flat is visible crossing from the top-left to bottom-right of this image.

In 1962, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation began construction of Causey Dam, near the confluence of the South Fork Ogden River with its tributaries of Skull Creek and Causey Creek. The reservoir impounded by the dam was first filled in 1966.

A couple of years later, Basin Land and Livestock cut a road from the newly constructed Causey Dam into Skull Crack Canyon. The company began charging hunters a small fee to use this new road to access prime deer and elk habitat on the hills and canyons behind Causey Reservoir.

Causey Estates Skull Crack Canyon hunting cabin newspaper advertisement
During the 1960s and 1970s, Basin Land and Livestock opened a portion of its property near Causey Reservoir to the public, both for hunting and eventually for the construction of cabins in a subdivision called Causey Estates.

By the early 1970s, Basin Land and Livestock had secured permission from Weber County to subdivide a portion of its property in Skull Crack Canyon. The new subdivision was named Causey Estates.

Development of Causey Estates occurred in three phases. Lots in phase 1 first became available in 1974. Phase 2 followed a short time later, in 1976. The third and final phase was not opened until 1983.

By the time Joyce Yost and Sheree Warren disappeared in 1985, many cabins dotted Causey Estates phases 1 and 2.

The U.S. Geological Survey published an update to its 7.5-minute Causey Dam quadrangle map in 1981. The revision showed the addition of new roads and structures in Skull Crack Canyon, as a result of the development of the Causey Estates subdivision.

Phase 3, tucked in a side canyon on the far eastern edge of the development, remained comparatively primitive. But lot owners at Causey Estates would often use the old ranch road that departed from phase 3 going toward Box Spring and Magpie Flat to access hunting ground in the vast, undeveloped Basin Land and Livestock property.


Cary Hartmann’s connections to Causey

Police gathered evidence in the Sheree Warren case during 1987 that showed Warren’s boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, knew the Causey area well. Hartmann had several friends who owned lots in Causey Estates.

C. Brent Morgan had known Hartmann since childhood. They’d grown up together in the Uintah Highlands area of Weber County. Morgan, a taxidermist by trade and an avid hunter, had been one of the first buyers when lots became available in Causey Estates.

For Morgan, a primary perk of owning land in Causey Estates was the promise of hunting access on the adjacent Basin Land and Livestock property.

“In the early years, the advantage was it was very isolated,” Morgan said in an interview for COLD.

Morgan began construction on a cabin in the early 1980s. The work progressed slowly over the course of several years. By 1984, Morgan was ready to install plumbing at his unfinished cabin.

“Guess who did the plumbing work. Cary did,” Morgan said.

Hartmann came from a family of plumbers and was himself a licensed plumber.

Cary Hartmann plumbing license
Cary Hartmann maintained a professional license as a journeyman plumber in the state of Utah. In September of 1984, Hartmann performed plumbing subcontracting work at his friend C. Brent Morgan’s cabin in Causey Estates.

Hartmann’s own 1984 daily calendar, obtained by COLD from police evidence, showed he spent several days during September of 1984 at Morgan’s cabin in Causey Estates. Hartmann also attended Morgan’s wedding at Box Spring, just outside Causey Estates near Magpie Flat, on Oct. 7, 1984.

Box Spring sat along the old ranch road that connected Causey Estates phase 3 with Magpie Flat.

“He knew the gate system,” Morgan said. “He knew how to get to my place, he could drive the roads.”

Following Hartmann’s arrest in 1987, Morgan told police Hartmann had borrowed his key for the gate at Causey Estates in September, 1985, a couple of weeks prior to Sheree Warren’s disappearance. Handwritten detectives noted obtained by COLD show Morgan told police “that he did not get his key back until Oct. 11, 1985,” more than a week after Warren vanished.

Cary Hartmann Box Spring Brent Morgan
Cary Hartmann, in black, approaches C. Brent Morgan, center, at Box Spring on Oct. 7, 1984. Morgan hosted is wedding at the remote spring southeast of Causey Reservoir. Photo: C. Brent Morgan

Another of Hartmann’s friends, an elk hunting guide named Allen Fred John, told police he’d bumped into Hartmann and another man in a clearing at the head of Guildersleeve Canyon on Sunday, Oct. 6, 1985. John had reportedly questioned Hartmann, wondering why he was trespassing on private property during the opening weekend of the annual elk hunt.

The location at the top of Guildersleeve Canyon described by John sat east of Magpie Flat and could’ve been accessed through Causey Estates.

Guildersleeve Canyon Cary Hartmann sighting
This May 27, 2022 image captured from KSL Chopper 5 shows the location where elk hunting guide Allen Fred John told police he spotted Cary Hartmann trespassing on private property four days following Sheree Warren’s disappearance. The dirt road visible in the image is accessible from Causey Estates. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Police spoke to yet another of Hartmann’s friends in 1987, a former Ogden police officer named Bill Thorsted, whose family owned a lot in Causey Estates phase 1. Records detailing that conversation have been lost by the Ogden City Police Department.

Most significantly, Hartmann’s friend Dave Moore owned a lot in Causey Estates phase 3. Hartmann had told Roy police he’d spent the evening of Warren’s disappearance with Moore at a bar in Ogden. But when police questioned Moore, they learned his timeline and Hartmann’s conflicted.


Doug Lovell and Joyce Yost “up by Causey”

In 1991, a South Ogden detective named Terry Carpenter questioned Douglas Lovell’s ex-wife, Rhonda Buttars, about the disappearance of Joyce Yost. Buttars told Carpenter that Lovell had murdered Yost to prevent her from testifying at trial.

Buttars provided a recorded statement to police, in which she described what Lovell had told her about Yost’s murder.

“[Lovell] said he made [Yost] drive up the canyon and they went up by Causey and he said he didn’t go far off the road,” Buttars said. “He just stopped the car and got out of the car and walked up this hill and it wasn’t very far off the road and grabbed her neck and was choking her and then I think he stepped on her neck and stomped on it and smashed it.”

Buttars said Lovell had tried to bury Yost’s body as best he could.

“He said he didn’t bury her very deep. He just, you know, like put leaves or shrubbery or dirt over her,” Buttars said. “She had her purse at the time, he said, and he dumped all her stuff out by her, her purse and then just left it.”

Douglas Lovell poses for a booking photo at the Salt Lake County Jail on July 9, 1985. Jail staff released Lovell shortly after this photo was taken, in violation of a judge’s hold order. Lovell murdered Joyce Yost a month later. Photo: Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office

Prosecutors twice had Buttars wear a hidden recording device as she visited Lovell at the Utah State Prison. In those two recordings, obtained exclusively by COLD, Lovell made incriminating comments about how and why he killed Joyce Yost.

“I am the only one that knows where she’s at,” Lovell said in one of those recordings.

Lovell said he’d revisited Yost’s body some time later, better concealing Yost and stealing a wristwatch he’d initially left with her remains. Lovell expressed confidence no one would find the gravesite.

“The only thing I’m nervous about is that one time that caller called in,” Lovell said, in reference to the anonymous caller who’d reported finding a woman’s body near Causey Reservoir.

Prosecutors used Buttars’ confession and Lovell’s recorded statements to obtain a capital murder charge against Lovell in 1992. Lovell entered into plea negotiations, hoping to avoid a potential death sentence. During the summer of 1993, Lovell led police to a site along the Old Snowbasin Road east of Ogden where he claimed to have buried Yost. Searches of that site failed to turn up any human remains.

Douglas Lovell told police he’d buried Joyce Yost in a shallow grave near this spot along the Old Snowbasin Road in Weber County, Utah. The site, seen here on May 8, 2021, was searched extensively during the summer of 1993 but no human remains were located. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

The Old Snowbasin Road site was nowhere near Causey Reservoir, where Buttars had told police Lovell claimed he’d taken Yost the morning following the murder.

Lovell’s failure to produce Joyce Yost’s remains invalidated his plea agreement. A judge sentenced Lovell to death. Lovell’s case remains under appeal.

In 2021 and 2022, COLD attended a cadaver dog searches of a cabin property previously owned by Lovell’s parents in Sunridge Highlands, a subdivision about eight miles northeast of Causey Reservoir. Those searches did not lead to the discovery of Joyce Yost’s remains.


Finding the Causey rock pile

COLD began collecting historical maps and aerial images of the Causey area while researching the Joyce Yost and Sheree Warren cases. COLD also tasked Chopper 5, a news helicopter operated by KSL 5 TV, with gathering video of specific sites around Causey.

On Dec. 9, 2019, Chopper 5 recorded video of an unnamed ridge east of Causey Estates phase 3. Close examination of the video revealed the presence of a rock mound, located about 40 yards to the side of the disused Basin Land and Livestock ranch road that once connected Causey Estates with Box Spring.

KSL Chopper 5 video showing an anomalous rock pile on a ridge near Causey Reservoir on December 9, 2020.

COLD conducted further research in an attempt to determine when the rock pile was first constructed. A review of historical aerial images showed the mound was present as far back as the early 1990. Images generated prior to that time were not clear enough to conclusively show the mound.

Chopper 5 collected additional video of the rock pile during flyovers of the Causey area in May and September of 2022.

KSL Chopper 5 video of an anomalous rock pile on a mountain ridge near Causey Reservoir on September 22, 2022.

The rock pile sat less than half a mile as the crow flies from the lot in Causey Estates phase 3 previously owned by Cary Hartmann’s friend, Dave Moore.

Causey Estates rock pile Dave Moore property
A U.S. government aerial image captured on Sept. 12, 1986 shows the relative positions of Dave Moore’s former lot in Causey Estates phase 3 with an anomalous rock pile identified by COLD. Annotations added by COLD.

It was about 2.5 miles from Causey Dam, which was consistent with the description provided by the anonymous caller in 1987.

As a result, COLD provided images and GPS coordinates for the rock pile to Roy City police.


Police search of the Causey rock pile

Roy police, in cooperation with Weber Metro CSI and the Weber County Sheriff’s Office, conducted an excavation at the site of the rock pile on Aug. 23, 2023. COLD accompanied the investigators to the site and observed their work.

Weber County CSI Causey rock pile search
Weber Metro CSI staff, along with Roy City police and Weber County search and rescue staff, examine the rock mound near Causey Estates on Aug. 23, 2023. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Over the course of several hours, detectives removed the rocks and scraped out the soil beneath them. They painstakingly removed the earth a few inches at a time. CSI staff then passed the dirt and pebbles through a mesh screen, watching for any items of evidence.

CSI sifting dirt through mesh screen
Crime scene investigators from Weber County sift dirt, pebbles and vegetation on a mesh screen at the site of a suspicious rock mound near Causey Reservoir on Aug. 23, 2023. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

The mesh was designed to capture any bone fragments, teeth or cloth scraps that might be expected to come out of a clandestine grave. Bucketful after bucketful went through the screen. Fine sifted dirt collected in a growing heap on a blue tarp beneath the screen.

Causey rock pile screen sifting clandestine grave
Dirt sifted by Weber County CSI sits on a blue tarp next to the former site of a suspicious rock pile near Causey Reservoir on Aug. 23, 2023. Police determined the site did not hold human remains. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

By midafternoon, the excavation reached a depth of roughly 2.5 feet below ground level. The detectives at that time noted they’d entered a soil layer that had not been previously disturbed. No evidence of human remains had been located. The investigators concluded the site was not a clandestine grave.

Roy police detective John Frawley told KSL TV it was a disappointing result, but worth the effort.

“You’re always hoping to find something,” Frawley said. “We keep going. If there’s a place to dig, we’re going to dig. If there’s a place to search, we’re going to search. And we’re just not going to stop.”


Hear what happens next for the Sheree Warren investigation in a bonus episode of Cold season 3: The Causey Search

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Aaron Mason
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/causey-search-full-transcript/

Bonus: The Convenient Alternative


Serial killer Ted Bundy spent most of the summer of 1975 in Utah. That same July, a young woman named Nancy Baird disappeared from the gas station where she worked in the town of East Layton, Utah.

Baird was never located. For nearly five decades, speculation has swirled that Bundy abducted and killed her.

Nancy Baird NAMUS missing person
Nancy Baird, shown here in approximately 1970, was last seen on July 4, 1975 in East Layton, Utah. Photo via NAMUS

It made sense to investigators, at least on the surface. Theodore “Ted” Bundy later admitted to abducting and killing multiple women and girls in Utah. His first arrest came in August of 1975, just six weeks after Nancy Baird disappeared, 30 miles south of where Baird had last been seen.

But no direct evidence has ever emerged to definitively tie Bundy to Baird.


The informant William Babbel

Nancy Baird’s name came to my attention during research of the Sheree Warren case for COLD season 3. Although Sheree disappeared in 1985, a full 10 years after Nancy, their stories bore some striking similarities. They were roughly the same age at the time of their respective disappearances (25 for Sheree, 23 for Nancy). Both were recently divorced from or in the process of divorcing their husbands. Both were primary caretakers for their young sons. And both were last seen at their workplaces.

What most piqued my curiosity about Nancy Baird though, were the claims of an FBI informant named William Babbel.

William Babbel driver license photo informant FBI
William Herbert Babbel, shown here on July 19, 2004, briefly acted as an FBI informant in February of 1989. Photo: Weber County Attorneys Office

The Sheree Warren case files show Babbel began communicating with an FBI special agent in February of 1989, just a couple of weeks after Florida executed Ted Bundy. Babbel told the agent he was incarcerated with Warren’s former boyfriend, Cary Hartmann.

Special agent Gregory Hall referred to Babbel only as “source” or by the pseudonym SU 1815-C in his reports. Hall wrote Babbel “was able to provide this writer with information regarding [Sheree Warren] for only a brief period of time.”

Most of Babbel’s information had to do with Hartmann, who was at that time serving a sentence of 15-years-to-life in prison for an aggravated sexual assault that’d occurred in Ogden, Utah a few years prior. Babbel reportedly said Hartmann had been “openly talking about [Warren’s] disappearance.”


Cary Hartmann and Ted Bundy

William Babbel also told the FBI Cary Hartmann had followed news coverage of Ted Bundy’s execution.

Days before Florida put Bundy to death, a detective from the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office interviewed the serial killer. Bundy told the detective he’d killed five people in Utah. The detective wanted to know if Nancy Baird was one of them.

This January 24, 1989 story from the KSL-TV archives details Salt Lake County Sheriff’s detective Dennis Couch’s interview with serial killer Ted Bundy two days earlier. Bundy admitted to five murders in Utah during the pre-execution interview, but specifically denied involvement in the disappearance of Nancy Perry Baird.

Speculation about Bundy’s possible involvement in Baird’s disappearance was featured in TV and newspaper stories at the time.

The FBI reports show Babbel told the agent “Hartmann questioned why Ted Bundy was blamed for the disappearance of Nancy Baird.” Babbel reportedly said “on one occasion, Hartmann was looking at a newspaper article depicting Ted Bundy along with photos of many of his victims. Hartmann placed a X by the photos of five of Bundy’s alleged victims.”

Special Agent Gregory Hall later added Babbel “learned that Cary Hartmann was an acquaintance of Nancy Baird. Baird’s disappearance allegedly occurred while Hartmann was experiencing a divorce.”

Hartmann had been between his two marriages during the summer of 1975. So Babbel’s information had an appearance of credibility. But the FBI later stopped using Babbel as an informant, determining he was unreliable. Babbel also attempted to inform, less than credibly, in the disappearance of Joyce Yost.

The FBI reports do not say whether anyone ever looked into Babbel’s claim of a link between Cary Hartmann and Nancy Baird.


The Nancy Baird case file

COLD submitted a public records request to the Davis County Sheriff’s Office seeking copies of the Nancy Baird case files in January of 2022. The goal, in part, was to determine whether investigators in the Nancy Baird case had ever been informed of the William Babbel information.

The sheriff’s office denied the request, saying the Baird case remained open. Releasing the case file, they argued, could hamper the ongoing investigation.

COLD filed an appeal, arguing while the case was technically open, it had not been active for quite some time. In fact, the investigation had been all but abandoned after Ted Bundy was identified as a suspect.

Davis County agreed to release a partial and redacted copy of the Nancy Baird case file in May of 2022. Cary Hartmann’s name didn’t appear in those records. Neither did Ted Bundy’s. The story, it would turn out, was much more complicated.


Identi-kit

The Nancy Baird case files obtained by COLD cover only the first days and weeks of the investigation. They detailed how, on July 4, 1975, Nancy had gone to work at the Fina gas station near the intersection of Cherry Lane and Highway 89 in the town of East Layton.

Google Street View East Layton gas station
This September, 2011 Google Street View image shows the gas station where Nancy Perry Baird worked (left) alongside U.S. Highway 89 in East Layton, Utah in 1975. The station has since been demolished by the Utah Department of Transportation as part of a highway expansion project.

At about 5:10 p.m., two children arrived at the station with their father, Denzle Williams. The children, David and Jana Williams, briefly interacted with Nancy inside the Fina station’s convenience store. They became the last people known to have seen Nancy Baird.

The following day, a Davis County detective interviewed David and Jana Williams. They told the detective they’d seen two men in the Fina store, talking to Nancy Baird minutes before she disappeared. The young siblings provided physical descriptions of the men they’d seen.

Those descriptions allowed the detective to use a tool called Identi-kit to build composite images of the two men. Police labeled the men “subject #1” and “subject #2” and described them as “hippie type” individuals.

Subject #1 was skinny, had shoulder-length hair, a beard and mustache and wore a denim jacket with frayed edges.

Nancy Baird Identikit subject 1
The Identi-kit composite of “subject #1” in the Nancy Perry Baird case.

Subject #2 also had a beard and mustache, but his hair came only to the bottom of his ears. He’d been dressed in a yellow long-sleeve shirt. 

Nancy Baird Identikit subject 2
The Identi-kit composite of “subject #2” in the Nancy Perry Baird case.

Denzle Williams also told the detective about a third man he’d seen outside the Fina station while his kids, David and Jana, were inside the convenience store interacting with Nancy Baird. The third man was about 55 to 60 years old, very thin and had prominent veins on his arms.

Nancy Baird Identikit subject 3
The Identi-kit composite of “subject #3” in the Nancy Perry Baird case.

Denzle Williams reportedly told the detective he did not see the older man go into the convenience store. It is unknown whether the older man ever interacted with Nancy Baird.


Tom in a yellow Volkswagen

The Nancy Baird case files show detectives compared the composite images to photos from an album that belonged to Baird. They believed one of the photos showed “a very similar likeness of one of the Identi-kit composites.” Investigators identified the man in Baird’s photo album, but that man provided an alibi.

As a result, it’s not clear whether the two “hippie type” men seen by David and Jana Williams in the Fina station with Nancy Baird minutes before she disappeared were ever definitively identified. Neither of those men shared a resemblance with serial killer Ted Bundy.

The Nancy Baird case files also include an account from one of Baird’s friends, a woman named Deloris Drake. She told a detective that on the night of July 2, 1975, she’d visited a few bars along Ogden’s Washington Boulevard with Nancy Baird. Those included Rigos, a restaurant and bar, and the Iron Horse.

Iron Horse bar Washington Boulevard Ogden Utah
Nancy Perry Baird visited this bar, formerly known as the Iron Horse, with a friend two nights prior to her disappearance in July of 1975. The friend later told investigators a man named Tom followed Baird that night and made threatening comments.

Drake told investigators Nancy Baird had dropped her off at home around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of July 3, 1975. Baird then departed for her own home in Layton.

About 30 minutes later, Baird returned to Drake’s home on 36th Street in Ogden. Davis County Sheriff’s Lt. Dean Egbert wrote in a report Baird “appeared to be quite shaken and frightened” because a man named Tom in a yellow van had followed her home.

This man, Tom, had allegedly pursued Nancy Baird to her friend Deloris Drake’s home and was making a threatening comment toward Baird as Drake opened her door. Drake told investigators she’d seen a second man with “Tom,” on a motorcycle.

The case files do not include any further mention of these two men, or suggest investigators at the time in 1975 made any further effort to identify, contact or interview them in regard to Nancy Baird’s disappearance.


Hear why Ted Bundy may also have an alibi in Cold: The Convenient Alternative

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Aaron Mason
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/550243/blamed-on-bundy-cold-podcast-challenges-popular-theory-in-nancy-baird-cold-case/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/ted-bundy-convenient-alternative-full-transcript/

Ep 10: Last Man Standing


The photo scanner tucked under my arm tipped precariously toward the concrete. A power cable dangled behind, skittering as I stepped up to the door of a home in the suburbs of Davis County, Utah. I’d come in search of Sheree Warren photos.

The door opened inward before I could knock. I found myself whisked inside with an exchange of introductions. “Hi! How are you? Nice to meet you.” A few strides brought me into the home’s kitchen, where a renovation project seemed to have paused for my visit. Sheets of plywood and plastic surrounded an island topped with a gleaming new countertop.

I placed the scanner down on the glassy smooth surface, connected it by USB cable to my laptop and pulled a stool up to the kitchen bar. Then, looking up at several of Sheree Warren’s relatives, I asked if we might take a look at the photo albums sitting on the counter between us.


In her own words: Susan Powell

In season 1 of Cold, we heard the story of Susan Powell’s unhappy marriage to her husband, Josh Powell. When Susan disappeared in 2009, the circumstances suggested foul play. Police spent the next two years digging up all manner of materials: medical and financial records, personal journals, private social media messages, thousands of Powell family photographs.

Susan Cox Powell red blouse International Peace Gardens
Susan Powell poses at the International Peace Gardens in Salt Lake City, Utah on July 24, 2008. Photo: Susan Powell family photos

Susan’s own words were captured among all that evidence, detailing the descent of her relationship with Josh into ever-deeper levels of domestic abuse. Susan’s narration of her own story, told piece-by-piece in every frustrated email and journal entry, offered unusual clarity about her life in the days, months and years that preceded her presumed murder.

Susan Powell’s experience was one of domestic abuse and coercive control. The story shared in Cold season 1 turned a spotlight on the controlling and narcissistic behaviors of Susan’s husband, as well as the pattern of generational grooming present in Josh Powell’s family.


In her own words: Joyce Yost

With season 2 of Cold, we turned to an older case: the 1985 disappearance of Joyce Yost. I came across an audio tape while researching Joyce’s case. It held a recording of her, telling the story of how she’d been raped by a man she didn’t know.

That man, Douglas Lovell, killed Joyce in order to silence her. Lovell intended to hide what he’d done by preventing Joyce from testifying at trial. It didn’t work. Joyce Yost had spoken her truth. Her words were powerful and honest. Even when read by a proxy, Joyce’s voice came through.

Joyce Yost red suit armchair
Joyce Yost sits in a white armchair in this undated snapshot. Photo: Joyce Yost family

Joyce asked an officer just hours after being assaulted “how safe am I?” In sharing that audio recording, I hoped to illustrate how too often the unspoken response to that question is “not enough.” Because a series of oversights and errors left Joyce exposed to unnecessary risk.

Taboos around discussion of sexual violence and victim-blaming attitudes can drive survivors into the shadows, making them more vulnerable to fatal violence.


Searching for Sheree Warren photos

Cold has served as a megaphone, amplifying the voices Susan Powell and Joyce Yost.

I’d hoped it might do the same for Sheree Warren, when I turned to her unsolved disappearance for Cold season 3. Sheree experienced an unhappy marriage to her husband, Charles Warren. She shared a brief fling with a boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, prior to her disappearance.

What had she thought or felt about these relationships? How had each man treated Sheree in private? If I could find a clip of her voice on an old cassette tape, or uncover a dusty journal in the hands of a sibling, perhaps I could give voice to her experience.

Sheree Warren photos portrait Roy police
This aging photo print of Sheree Warren has remained in the possession of Roy City Police since 1985. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

For months, I reached out to anyone who might’ve known Sheree. Her older brother told me their parents hadn’t owned a home movie camera. He wasn’t aware of any journals.

Even Sheree Warren photos proved rare. A sister suggested maybe their mother, Mary Sorensen, had kept some pictures, but Mary passed away several years prior. It wasn’t clear where her albums had ended up.

No one seemed to have kept any old letters in Sheree’s handwriting. Anecdotes about her were offered infrequently, if at all.

How could I tell the story of what happened to Sheree Warren, if I knew hardly anything about her?


Meeting Sheree Warren’s relatives

A cousin of Sheree’s, after some gentle prodding, invited me to come and review a collection of Sheree Warren photos among Polaroids and scrapbook pages. That’s how we ended up together, along with some of Sheree’s other relatives, in the unfinished kitchen of that suburban home in the fall of 2022.

I placed the photos on the flatbed scanner, one by one. The technical aspects of the task consumed my attention: pixels-per-inch and bit depths, file paths and metadata. Once everything looked correct, I’d click the button to start the scan. The scanner would light up and, with a robotic whir, begin making a digital copy of the selected photograph.

Sheree Warren photos family 1973
Sheree Sorensen and a relative hold croquet mallets on the lawn outside a suburban home in April of 1973. Photo: Sheree Warren family

The process took time. As the scanner worked, we talked. Sheree’s relatives asked most of the questions. How did you get into investigating cold cases? (Kind of by accident, with the Susan Powell case.) Have you talked to Sheree’s ex-husband? (Not yet, not sure I can, he has dementia.) Is it true Cary Hartmann is out of prison? (Yes, he was paroled in March of 2020, I went and talked to him.)

They shared memories about Sheree’s early life. She’d worked at the Burger Bar in Roy before getting the job at the credit union. Or wait, maybe it was that other burger place half a block away, Warren’s. They wondered what she’d ever seen in Charles Warren, the stocky rail yard worker she’d married just after her 21st birthday.

After Sheree disappeared, they said, Cary Hartmann had showed up at a family prayer meeting, conspicuous and out of place.

Burger Bar Roy Sheree Warren
Sheree Warren’s family said she worked at a small restaurant on 1900 West in Roy, Utah in her youth. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

I shared tidbits from the case files I’d obtained, insights from old investigators I’d interviewed, inconsistencies in the statements of both Charles Warren and Cary Hartmann.

A root question seemed to underlie it all: what do you think happened to Sheree?


Sheree Warren photos

It wasn’t until I’d completed the scans and returned home that I was able to look at the photos in any detail. Most dated back to Sheree’s early childhood, in the 1960s. There were tender studio shots of Sheree and her older brother, as well as Christmas candids where Sheree was surrounded by relatives.

Sheree Warren photos 1974 family Christmas
Sheree Sorensen sits with relatives at a family Christmas gathering in December, 1974. Photo: Sheree Warren family

One of the Sheree Warren photos among the collection stood out to my eyes. It showed a young Sheree Sorensen, from around 1970, when she was about 10 years old.

The picture pre-dated Sheree’s disappearance by 15 years. It held no value as evidence in her case. And yet, something about Sheree’s expression struck me. Her eyes, open wide, were fixed straight ahead. Her closed-mouth smile was restrained, with none of the “cheese” hamminess often captured in children’s portraiture.

Sheree Warren photos childhood portrait
Sheree Sorensen, at approximately age 10. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Sheree grew up as the daughter of hard-working parents. She performed well academically, often appearing on lists of honors roll students. One of her cousins told me Sheree wasn’t exactly a scholar, but she had a way with people. Sheree had an aptitude for management. Had she lived, she might’ve advanced far in her career. Her life held boundless potential.

In that childhood photo, Sheree seemed to stare straight ahead into that future. What hopes and aspirations did she hold as she moved into early adulthood? We will never know, because someone stole that future from Sheree on the night of October 2, 1985.


The last man standing

As I write this in April of 2023, Charles “Chuck” Warren has been dead for about six months. Sheree’s ex-husband’s final years were marred by a descent into dementia. I’d learned of his illness while preparing to reach out in the hopes of securing an interview.

Chuck’s illness meant I was never able to speak with him myself. His death left lingering uncertainty about his actions and whereabouts on the night of Sheree’s disappearance. Some investigators, I knew, still considered Chuck the prime suspect. They couldn’t shake the stories from Chuck’s past, how he’d once attacked his first wife with a tire iron and left her for dead.

Others viewed Cary Hartmann as a more likely suspect. Cary, they told me, failed a polygraph examination about Sheree’s disappearance after his release from prison in March of 2020. The Weber County Attorney’s Office had even taken the extreme step of offering Cary immunity from criminal charges, if he would only lead police to Sheree’s remains.

Cary, I was told, had taken a few days to consider that offer before rejecting it. When I attempted to speak to Cary myself, he cut me off and referred questions to his lawyer. That lawyer did not respond to a phone message or email seeking comment.

So this is the state of the Sheree Warren case: two plausible persons of interest, one silenced by disease and then death, the other silent by choice.


The truth of Sheree Warren’s disappearance

Sheree Sorensen Warren should be alive today. She should exist to her family, most of all her son, as more than a few photographs and the subject of a true-crime podcast.

I wish sharing the story of the search for Sheree in Cold hadn’t been necessary. I wish I’d had an opportunity to meet Sheree, to talk to her, to learn from her. Her silence hangs over Cold season 3. It rings in my ears.

Sheree can no longer speak for herself. She can’t tell us the story of her life. But it’s my sincere hope sharing the story of what happened to her can lead to truth.

Abuse in relationships doesn’t always lead to murder, but there are stories like Sheree’s where everything escalates until there’s no coming back.

We have to do better than this. This is my truth.


Hear Dave Cawley’s theory of the Sheree Warren case in Cold season 3, episode 10: Last Man Standing

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Ben Kuebrich
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/513813/new-development-suspect-in-missing-woman-case-recently-failed-a-polygraph-test/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/last-man-standing-full-transcript/

Ep 9: A Picture in the Lobby


The search for Sheree Warren had sat cold for nearly a decade. But an unexpected discovery reignited the investigation at the start of 2015. A man walking his dog along a busy Utah highway spotted a human skull in a patch of oak brush.

Deputies from the Davis County Sheriff’s Office responded to the site and soon located a shallow grave at the top of a nearby hill. From it, they recovered the skeletal remains of an unidentified woman.

The discovery led to police across northern Utah reviewing their cold case files, looking to see if the Jane Doe might be one of their missing people. A detective in the city of Roy named John Frawley did the same. He took a dusty box of Sheree Warren case files off a shelf and began to read.

“I just became fascinated with it,” John Frawley said in an interview for COLD. “I felt like there was more I could do on it.”

Roy City police detective John Frawley talks about missing woman Sheree Warren, who disappeared from Salt Lake City, Utah on Oct. 2, 1985.

John met with Sheree’s family to collect DNA for comparison purposes. He learned Sheree’s mom, Mary Sorensen, had died just shy of two years earlier.

“What we’re driven for is to get the family some answers,” John said.


Remains identified

Detective John Frawley only had the Sheree Warren case for a few weeks before the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services obtained a dental record match on the unidentified remains. The bones did not belong to Sheree Warren.

Instead, the remains located alongside U.S. Highway 89 were those of Theresa Greaves. Like Sheree, Theresa had disappeared in the 1980s. Police had long suspected she’d been murdered, but no suspects were ever identified.

Theresa Greaves cold case disappearance
The remains of Theresa Greaves, who disappeared from Woods Cross, Utah in 1983, were located in Davis County, Utah in 2015. Greaves was originally from New Jersey and did not have family in Utah. Photo: Woods Cross, Utah police

For Roy police and the Sheree Warren investigation, the news came as another in a long line of setbacks. John’s supervisor told him he could return the box of old case files to the records department. But John wasn’t ready to give up on the case and soon discovered he had an ally.

In March of 2015, Roy City hired Carl Merino to serve as chief of police. Merino told his detective to forge ahead with the Sheree Warren investigation.

“That’s what I wanted to do,” John said.


Interviewing Sheree Warren’s ex-husband

The initial investigation of Sheree’s disappearance on Oct. 2, 1985 had fallen on the shoulders of a detective named Jack Bell. By 2015, Bell was on the road to retirement. But John Frawley studied Jack’s notes and reports. He learned Jack had initially suspected Sheree’s estranged husband, Charles “Chuck” Warren, might’ve killed her.

Jack Bell told COLD he’d interviewed Chuck Warren one time, but Chuck stopped cooperating once he was asked to submit to a polygraph examination.

Former Roy police detective Jack Bell describes Charles “Chuck” Warren’s story about the day Warren’s estranged wife, Sheree Warren, disappeared on Oct. 2, 1985. Bell conducted a Charles Warren interview on Oct. 4, 1985.

John Frawley felt the time had come to try and interview Chuck Warren again. So, on June 23, 2015, John went to speak with Chuck at his home on the eastern end of Hudson Street in Ogden. He was met at the door by Chuck Warren’s wife, Willow Hendricks.

COLD obtained an audio recording of the interview John conducted. What follows is a transcript of the Charles Warren interview.


June 23, 2015 interview transcript

John Frawley: Hi, how are you?

Willow Hendricks: Good.

John Frawley: Good, can I come in?

Willow Hendricks: (Laughs)

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: I’m assuming you’re the detective?

John Frawley: Yeah, I am. My name’s John. John Frawley. Nice to meet you.

Willow Hendricks: Nice to meet you. He was just getting his shirt buttoned up.

John Frawley: Awesome.

Willow Hendricks: Come on in, Chuck. (Cat meows) What? No, you’re not going outside. (Cat meows) But, yeah? You’re not going outside. No. (Unintelligible)

(Willow in next room with Chuck, before Chuck enters)

John Frawley: Hello.

Charles Warren: Hey (unintelligible).

John Frawley: Doing well.

Charles Warren: (Unintelligible)

John Frawley: Oh, you’re fine, sir. My name’s John Frawley. I’m one of the detectives in Roy.

Charles Warren: Uh huh.

John Frawley: Appreciate your time, appreciate you letting me come over and talk to you. Uh, is, is there somewhere we could talk for a couple minutes?

Charles Warren: Sure.

John Frawley: It’s your house, I’ll follow you.

Charles Warren: Go where?

Willow Hendricks: I’d say go to the front room. (Laughs)

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: It’s the cleanest house, the cleanest room in the house.

Charles Warren interview house Ogden Hudson Street
Charles Warren owned this orange brick house on Hudson Street in Ogden, Utah at the time of his marriage to Sheree Warren. He still owned the house when questioned by Roy police detective John Frawley here in 2015. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Charles Warren: Ok. Come on and sit down.

John Frawley: Thanks.

Charles Warren: Oh.

John Frawley: Should I call you Charles or—

Charles Warren: Sure.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. I’ll just put my radio over there ‘cause, in case somebody calls me on it.

Charles Warren: Ok.


Charles Warren interview: Jack Bell’s notes

John Frawley: Umm, so uh, I’m here to talk to you. I’ve just, I was assigned a case a few months ago. Umm, Sheree Warren. Umm, what’d happened is, uh, some remains were found in Davis County. I don’t know if you saw that on the news or not.

Charles Warren: I didn’t.

John Frawley: Ok. It came down to, umm, a few different possibilities. Umm, and anytime something like that happens a lot of old cases are kind of re-opened and so the case was assigned to me. Umm, and I read through it and, uh, these, what they’d found turned out to be someone, y’know, obviously someone else but the case is reopened and, umm, I read through it and was wanting to know if I can just talk to you and help me answer some questions and clear some things up. I know that you’d talked to, (noise) umm, detective Bell, what, that was about 30, not quite 30 years ago but—

Charles Warren: Damn near.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I—

John Frawley: And so, yeah. Go ahead Charles.

Charles Warren: I, (laughs), his notes would probably be the best source.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: I, I uh [medical information redacted by Roy City Police Department].

John Frawley: Sorry to hear that.

Charles Warren: And uh, sometimes I can remember, uh, things of—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —but, what I said at that time, I, y’know, he’d have it all down, I would think—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —with how good he was at taking his notes—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —y’know.

Charles Warren interview detective Jack Bell notes Sheree cold case
A page of former Roy police detective Jack Bell’s handwritten notes, detailing a Charles Warren interview attempt on Oct. 14, 1985. The notes indicate Warren refused a police request to undergo a polygraph examination.

Willow Hendricks: [Personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]

Charles Warren: Well, that’s what I was telling—

John Frawley: Yeah, he was just telling me.

Willow Hendricks: Some of the things are kind of.

Charles Warren: Well, I have trouble remembering how to say different words.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: Y’know?

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: And sometimes I don’t. But it’s really funny how all this, like, I can’t remember, uh, stuff like that, y’know?

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: But, that far back, I, I, I was worried about my son because of the thing out in, in Roy, the shooting out there.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Willow Hendricks: The family dead.

Charles Warren: The family dead.

Willow Hendricks: The four dead.

Charles Warren: And it’s right close to where he lives, him and his grandfather.

John Frawley: Oh, really?

Charles Warren: And so I went out there yesterday—

John Frawley: Oh.

Charles Warren: The reason I drove out there is ‘cause I couldn’t remember their phone number. And I used to have a photographic memory where I could remember, I had a phone number—

John Frawley: Right.

Charles Warren: Y’know—

John Frawley: Right.

Charles Warren: I could remember it forever.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: Or even numbers off of cars.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: (Unintelligible) [Personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]

John Frawley: Well I’m sorry, sorry to hear that. But I was wondering if, y’know actually reading through that, through that report I, I have, I, I, more questions, actually. I, and so that’s why I, y’know, it’s like “I’ll call Charles and—“

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —“and maybe talk to him.”

Charles Warren: Well, ask me and I’ll see what—

John Frawley: Yeah. Well, I’d like to, if we could, maybe just go back to, umm, start from, start from the day that Sheree disappeared. Umm, October 2nd, 1985, I think that was a Wednesday. Umm, in the notes, umm, it says that, uh, you, you had, you had a child [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] at the time and that, uh, you guys did kind of a custodial exchange—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —early, early that morning. Do you remember that, Charles?


Charles Warren interview: Sheree Warren’s last day

Charles Warren: Yeah. What I remember is we, every day, she went to work at, during the day and I, I went to work at night. And I, I would, uh, I would uh, (laughs), drop him, or, I’d go to, we’d go to Denny’s—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —is where we would go. She would drop him off at Denny’s. We’d have coffee together and she’d go to work.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And then, the same in the afternoon. Uh, that was just the Monday through Friday of her—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —y’know.

John Frawley: Uh huh.

Charles Warren: Unless she had to work Saturday, too. But—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Y’know, I don’t remember whether she ever worked Saturday or, seems like she did but I don’t remember.

John Frawley: And so she was working down, she just got her new job down in Salt Lake?

Charles Warren: Yeah, she was becoming a manager, was gonna become a manager, something like that.

John Frawley: Yeah. To start training down there.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Roy City police detective John Frawley describes the morning of Sheree Warren’s disappearance and her custody exchange meeting with her estranged husband, Charles Warren.

John Frawley: Umm, and then that, you had asked her to pick you up at Wagstaff Toyotas, or something like that?

Charles Warren: Yeah, yeah.

John Frawley: Ok. Can you tell me more about that?

Charles Warren: (Sighs) Well, I don’t, I never made it down there—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —and I called and told her—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —that uh, y’know, I wasn’t going to make it—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: And uh, (pause), but I just never made it down there.

John Frawley: You never made it down there.

Charles Warren: Yeah. All I remember’s I, just never went down like I was supposed to but I did call her and uh, so I, y’know, I uh, I, I don’t know whether I talked to her or not. Seems like I did, but I can’t remember.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. You called down to the, you called I guess the bank?

Charles Warren: The bank, yeah.

John Frawley: But you’re not sure if maybe you talked to her or not or maybe?

Charles Warren: Uh, I, I think I did. It seems like I did, but—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —I’m not positive.

John Frawley: Ok. Umm—

Charles Warren: What, y’know, I probably told him what I did then, y’know?

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: He should, it should be in there.

John Frawley: Ok. And so, and I understand at the time, umm, she was also dating, umm, a man named Cary Hartmann.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: How, how do you know Cary Hartmann?

Charles Warren: I don’t.

John Frawley: Oh, ok. (Laughs)

Charles Warren: I’ve never seen him before—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —I don’t, uh, I don’t know what even he looks like.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: So, where is he, by the way?

John Frawley: Cary Hartmann?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: I think he’s incarcerated right now, so—

Charles Warren: Still?

John Frawley: Yeah. Had uh, but had she ever, did you know about him at the time. I mean, did you know that she was dating him or?

Charles Warren: (Sighs) I can’t remember.

John Frawley: Can’t remember that?

Charles Warren: Uh, I, yeah, I just can’t remember if she—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —uh, when he got arrested it seemed like, and uh, then I heard something about that she’d been dating him.

John Frawley: That she’d been dating him, afterwards?

Charles Warren: And I think that’s how I found out, but I don’t know.

John Frawley: After—

Charles Warren: She’d never said anything to me about it.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And I’d never asked—

John Frawley: Right.

Charles Warren: —so, y’know, ‘cause I was dating a lot of girls at the time.

John Frawley: Right. ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: So—

John Frawley: I’ve just got to make sure I can hear this radio. Umm, in the, do you, do you remember, in, in uh, detective Bell’s report he said that, umm, Alice [personal information removed by COLD] had picked you up, somewhere. Do you remember that at all?


Charles Warren interview: Out for a jog

Charles Warren: Uh, yeah. Yeah, I was out jogging. That’s what I was doing, I was out jogging.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I, I went too far—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —and, uh, she picked me up at Denny’s—

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: —on 12th.

John Frawley: 12th and?

Charles Warren: Washington.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: 12th Street and Washington. I was in there—

John Frawley: So you were in the Denny’s. Did you call her from the Denny’s to come get you?

Charles Warren: Yeah. Or, yeah I think I did. I must have. (Laughs)

Charles Warren said he’d spent the evening of his estranged wife Sheree Warren’s disappearance on a jog that concluded at this Denny’s restaurant near the intersection of 12th Street and Washington Boulevard in Ogden, Utah. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

John Frawley: ‘Kay. It’s a long, I’m brining you back pretty far here, Charles.

Charles Warren: Yeah, I must have—

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: I can’t remember whether I had a cell phone or not then. I know I was, don’t think, I don’t know. I don’t think I did—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —but maybe I did, I don’t know.

Willow Hendricks: Oh, you had a lot of the first ones that came out so you might’ve but—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: —I don’t know.

John Frawley: What, so you did have a cell phone a long time ago?

Charles Warren: I, I did a long time ago but I don’t know whether I had it that time. That was, uh, ’85?

John Frawley: Yeah, ’85.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Did you have a cell phone in ’85?

Charles Warren: I don’t know for sure.

John Frawley: Possibly?

Charles Warren: Seems like, I don’t know. I can’t remember what year I actually got it.

John Frawley: Would’ve been one of the first ones coming out, and—

Charles Warren: Yeah, yeah.

John Frawley: —I mean, I remember those big ones.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: Well, see and, that’s when they were out and I didn’t get one until they come out with the StarTac.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: So—

Willow Hendricks: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: —that was the first one I had.

John Frawley: StarTac?

Charles Warren: Yeah, it was a Motorola—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —think it was StarTac. Or star, wasn’t Star Trek but it was StarTac. They were playing off it, and — I think, I don’t know. But it was, it was still about that big—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —and uh, but it was round and about that long.

John Frawley: Uh.

Charles Warren: And I don’t know what year I had it.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: If I, and it had to’ve been later. I know I had it in ’88.

Willow Hendricks: Is it the one I still have down the hall?

Charles Warren: Might be, yeah. Might be.

John Frawley: It’s your very first one and you still have it?

Willow Hendricks: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: He, he keeps everything.

Charles Warren: I saved all of ‘em except the ones that got stolen.


Charles Warren interview: A change of plans

John Frawley: Can you, can you tell me, Charles, how, what changed, what changed your plans. Why didn’t you go to Wagstaff? Do you remember that?

Charles Warren: Uh, I was looking at cars, I think and uh, I uh, or something was wrong with my car. I can’t remember. And, umm, I don’t know. Shit. I don’t know.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: I remember calling her, I think I was calling her to tell her I wasn’t coming. Yeah, seemed like it was right around 4 o’clock or something that I called. I’m not sure.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Somewhere in there.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And he should have a record of that.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Uh, ‘cause I’m sure he checked phone numbers, phone calls.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. Umm, so you [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] then, right?

Charles Warren: Uh, no. Her parents [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department].

John Frawley: I thought you guys exchanged early in the morning.

Charles Warren: We, we usually did but I was busy doing something else.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: Oh wait a minute, I [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]. Yep. That’s sure. Yeah.

John Frawley: Did you find it strange that she didn’t come and pick [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] that night?

Charles Warren: Well, that’s when I called her parents about 9 or 10 o’clock at night. Somewhere in there.

John Frawley: Is that when she was supposed to pick him up?

Charles Warren: No, no. She was supposed to come pick him up, uh, when she got off work.

John Frawley: So that’s—

Charles Warren: So—

John Frawley: —that’s odd, then, right? I mean, that would’ve been strange.

Charles Warren: Yeah. Well, yeah but, y’know, uh, you had no other way of getting ahold of her, so—

John Frawley: She didn’t have a—

Charles Warren: —y’know, you have to wait ‘till she comes. I don’t think so.

John Frawley: She didn’t have a StarTac. (Radio noise) 10-4, thanks.

Charles Warren: Yeah, I didn’t [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]. I remember that.

Willow Hendricks: Was Alice helping you out—

Charles Warren: Alice was here, too.

Willow Hendricks: —helping you with the boys at that time?

John Frawley: So did Alice also watch, watch the boys?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Ok. But, but the plan was that Sheree would [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]

Charles Warren: Right.

John Frawley: —and bring him back to Roy, right?

Charles Warren: Yeah, ‘cause that’s where she, she was living with her, or she had an apartment, didn’t she?

John Frawley: She was living with Ed and—

Willow Hendricks: Mary.

John Frawley: —Mary.

Sheree Warren mom Mary Sorensen
Mary Sorensen holds her baby daughter, Sheree, in this undated portrait. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Charles Warren: Mary.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I remember her having an apartment, though. Somewhere.

Willow Hendricks: But was that at that time?

John Frawley: I think, I think—

Charles Warren: I don’t, I don’t know. 

John Frawley: —I think for a short time, she did but at that time she was living with Ed and Mary.

Charles Warren: Ok.

John Frawley: Umm.

Charles Warren: Must’ve been, ‘cause that’s why I called them.


Charles Warren interview: Putting pieces together

John Frawley: ‘Kay. Alright, so this, this helps quite a bit, Charles, actually put these pieces together because, umm, y’know, I’m working off of a report from a long time ago—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —y’know, you, you say you can’t remember too much but, y’know, you’re doing pretty good. You—

Charles Warren: Well as you’re bringing it up, I can remember a few things.

John Frawley: Awesome.

Charles Warren: Umm, but I’m not positive about, y’know.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: He’s been a pretty easy-going guy, too. So when she didn’t actually come pick him up at that time he probably wasn’t too worried about it. She’d be there eventually.

John Frawley: She, if she didn’t come right after work she would probably come—

Willow Hendricks: Just because he’s, y’know, because so easy-going, if you go do something it’s ok, just, but that’s, that’s probably why he didn’t worry at that time. Because he’s that kind of a person.

Charles Warren: Well, I (unintelligible) worrying about it one way or the other. But uh—

Willow Hendricks: Because that’s how you are.

Charles Warren: Yeah, until it got around 9, 10 o’clock.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah.

Charles Warren: So.

John Frawley: So what did you do when you started worrying about it, Charles?

Charles Warren: Well, I got on the phone and called her mom.

John Frawley: Oh, you did. ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And umm, talked to her and she didn’t know anything or, so.

John Frawley: Did she become concerned?

Charles Warren: Uh, yeah, yeah. She was. She was, I believe, yeah. I don’t remember what I said to her, but, umm, I just don’t know. Umm, it was like, uh, I don’t know. I don’t remember—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —what I said to her.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I remember calling her to find out where she was at—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —that’s what I was interested in.

John Frawley: Because generally, [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department], stay the night with, with them? Correct?

Charles Warren: Yeah, yeah.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Because I’d be going to, normally I’d be going to work at uh, what time did I go to work? Midnight.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: Midnight to 8.

John Frawley: You worked 12 to 8, midnight to 8?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: Yep, and then uh—

John Frawley: So there’s no way you would’ve—

Charles Warren: —it was just 8 straight hours. I’d be off at 8, just right at 8 and then I pick him up.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: She didn’t have to be to work until 9 or 10. I can’t remember which. 9 I think. And I think it was 9.

John Frawley: She had to be there at 9?

Charles Warren: I think so. I don’t know. Anyway, we had an hour to, ‘cause we usually sat in Denny’s and I had coffee there with her—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —y’know, so.

John Frawley: That makes more sense. ‘Cause if you met there, what time did you say you met there that morning? Would’ve been like—

Charles Warren: Well, it would’ve been right after 8 o’clock.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: A few minutes after 8, ‘cause I worked on 28th Street and I always got off right on time or a little early, y’know, and so I’d just go down to wherever we were gonna meet and, and then uh, just sit there and drink coffee.

John Frawley: Oh, ok. So, so when she doesn’t come up, what did, what did you end up [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] and Adam. What happened with him?

Charles Warren: Well, he stayed with me.

John Frawley: He did stay with you.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I kept him until her parents, I can’t remember what the deal was. Umm, I just don’t remember.

Willow Hendricks: He had Alice here with [Charles and Alice’s son] George though—

Charles Warren: Yeah, and Alice was with George.

Willow Hendricks: —and he’d probably stay with Alice.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Because you had to work.

Charles Warren: Yeah, I worked at midnight, yeah.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: But I wouldn’t have him then, see. She’d, she’d have him.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: But after that, y’know, uh, Alice didn’t work ‘till 8 or 9. I can’t remember if she was even working at the time. I don’t remember—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —whether she was even working at the time.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: But uh, umm, anyway, uh, but, uh, (sighs) anyway, umm—


Charles Warren interview: Sheree’s car

John Frawley: So, so Charles, it sounds like, umm, she was driving that Corolla.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Umm, by the way, where’s that Corolla now, do you know?

Charles Warren: I don’t.

John Frawley: Ok. So she’s driving that Corolla and then the Corolla’s found, uh, November 11th in, at the Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas. Umm, did you go down and pick that up ‘cause wasn’t it still registered to you?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: So you go down to pick it up. When did you go to pick that up?

Charles Warren: (Sighs) I don’t know. Can’t remember, uh, it was awhile, y’know? I had to, y’know, go down on my days off.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: And uh—

John Frawley: So it wasn’t right when they—

Charles Warren: No.

John Frawley: —told you it was there.

Charles Warren: No, no. Umm, but I wanted to get down there as soon as I can ‘cause they were charging storage and I can’t remember what it was.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: But it cost 300 or 400 dollars. Something like that, to get it out.

John Frawley: That was a lot of money right then.

Charles Warren: It was.

Charles Warren interview Las Vegas Sheree car impound
Las Vegas Metro Police records showed Charles Warren retrieved Sheree Warren’s car from impound in Nevada on Dec. 24, 1985. Police had found Sheree’s maroon Toyota Corolla abandoned behind the Aladdin Hotel and Casino.

John Frawley: Umm, did you take any time off work after she’d been reported disappeared?

Charles Warren: No, I don’t remember doing that.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I don’t remember doing that. But I, no I don’t think I did.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: The only time I took off work is, uh, is uh, when I was going partying. If I was sick, I went to work, y’know?

John Frawley: (Laughs) Yeah.

Charles Warren: So, I used my sick leave to go partying, not—

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: —y’know.

John Frawley: Umm, and you worked for the railroad. What did you do for the railroad?

Charles Warren: I was a clerk at that time.

John Frawley: Was that kind of in an office or was that traveling around?

Charles Warren: Uh, 28th Street yard office.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Basically.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I was the chief clerk there and, uh, on the afternoon shift for awhile and uh, for awhile on the midnight shift and, y’know, ‘till I got bumped and stuff like that. Umm, I think I only worked one day shift. But uh—

John Frawley: But this wasn’t like you getting on a train and traveling around—

Charles Warren: No, no.

John Frawley: —this was you working in an office.

Charles Warren: Just right there on 28th.

Charles Warren interview Southern Pacific Railroad Ogden yard train
Charles Warren worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad at this yard in Ogden, Utah at the time of his estranged wife Sheree Warren’s disappearance. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

John Frawley: Ok, ok.

Charles Warren: So.

John Frawley: Ok. Umm, so you hadn’t heard about Cary Hartmann until actually after he is arrested.

Charles Warren: Right.

John Frawley: That, that Sheree had been dating him.

Charles Warren: It seems like somebody come up and asked me questions about him. Maybe it was [Jack] Bell.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.


Charles Warren interview: Cary Hartmann’s psychic stories

Charles Warren: I remember him telling me something about Hartmann had been telling him about, he had a dream, some sort of a dream about finding her up in Ogden Valley somewhere.

John Frawley: That he had a dream?

Charles Warren: He had a dream or one of his friends had a, he didn’t right that down, huh?

John Frawley: I’ll have to review that one. Umm, that she’s up in the mountain? He had a dream that she’s up in the mountain?

Charles Warren: That, yeah. Yeah. That they’d find her up there.

John Frawley: Hmm.

Charles Warren: And they was, I, I don’t know. You ought to, if he didn’t put it in there, then—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —I don’t think I dreamed that up.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: I remember him telling me that, though, about some sort of a dream. Umm, something to do with a 4×4 pickup and uh, but I don’t know.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I don’t, I can’t remember. That thought just jumped in there.

Sheree Warren psychic dream letter KSL Cary Hartmann
KSL TV received this anonymous letter on Nov. 18, 1985. The writer claimed to have had a dream about the murder of a “young mother” who drove a “maroon import.” KSL turned the letter over to Roy police.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. Umm, he did, he did write that, I guess you went and talked to him on the 4th, would’ve been just a couple days after. He said that, in his report he said that, umm, so Sheree disappears on the 2nd. On the 3rd, you’d left work early ‘cause you weren’t feeling well or something like that. About 11:30 a.m., that you left work early and you, I guess he’d tried to call you. Did he, did he leave messages for you to call him?

Charles Warren: I wouldn’t have left work in the middle of the shift.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Uh, not unless somebody called me and said they were in the hospital. And I don’t remember that. Umm, might’ve went to lunch. We had, supposedly a 20-minute lunch but sometimes I took an hour or so.

John Frawley: Take a little longer lunch.

Charles Warren: Yeah. Nobody, well everybody did. Everybody took an hour and a half. I tried, most the time I tried to stay under an hour.

John Frawley: Under an hour. ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Uh—

John Frawley: So about 11:30’s probably the time you, is that, does that sound like the time—

Charles Warren: No—

John Frawley: —you took a lunch?

Willow Hendricks: He wouldn’t—

Charles Warren: —yeah, I could’ve, could’ve went to lunch at 11:30. But I don’t remember working days back then. And see—

Willow Hendricks: He wouldn’t have been at work at that time.

John Frawley: Do you keep any, uh, timecard records from that time? Do you have any records like that?

Charles Warren: No. (Laughs)

John Frawley: I know, she said you keep everything, so. (Laughs)

Charles Warren: No, no. Just phones.

Willow Hendricks: I have lots of checkbooks.

Charles Warren: (Laughs) Uh, let’s see here, uh, I can’t remember leaving work except (unintelligible) my dad once when he was in the hospital. I, oh, y’know Willow Hendricks:at I did one (sigh) ’88, ’89, ’89—

Willow Hendricks: So that wouldn’t have been—

Charles Warren: —no, it would’ve been ’90, ‘cause my mom died (unintelligible). My dad died in ’90 and I think the only time I ever left work, and I wasn’t working days then, but I was the agent.

Willow Hendricks: It wouldn’t have been the same time period, though.

Charles Warren: No, but that’s the only time I remember leaving—

John Frawley: So you weren’t—

Charles Warren: —go pick my dad up.

John Frawley: —you weren’t working 8-to-5’s in 1985? You weren’t working days?

Charles Warren: No, no. I don’t think so. I could’ve had one shift in there somewhere.

John Frawley: Oh, I see.

Charles Warren: I was, y’know, I worked, I bid jobs in but I couldn’t hold dayshift.

John Frawley: What were your days off?

Charles Warren: Uh, (laughs) depends on which jobs I was on.

John Frawley: Oh, I see.

Charles Warren: (Laughs) Most the days off I had was (unintelligible). Uh, shit.

Willow Hendricks: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: Monday and Tuesday or Tuesday and Wednesday. Stuff like that. I couldn’t hold weekends at all.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Uh, and let’s see, I, uh, I, uh, like I said, I do remember leaving on a day shift one time to get my dad but back then, I wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have left unless it was a total emergency.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Uh, and if I was working a day shift at that time, it would’ve been extra, would’ve been overtime. I used to work, umm, I used to work 8, uh, how does it work? I worked, uh, 16 hours (unintelligible) I have 8 hours off. I’d go back to work again, I’d work another 16 and 8 off. Then I’d work 32, err, 24 straight and 8 off. And uh, uh, then I, uh, anyway, it amounted to I had, uh, a 32-and-a-half day half. In other words, I’d have, I got paid for equivalent of 32 shifts, uh, and, of overtime.

Willow Hendricks: Is that during the time (unintelligible).

Charles Warren: No that was, that was before she was gone.

John Frawley: But it seems like you remember—

Charles Warren: I remember certain things, yeah.

John Frawley: (Radio noise) 10-4, thanks. But it, but you’re, it sounds like you’re positive that you were working 12-to-8s, is that, is that what you’re saying? At that time?

Charles Warren: No, I’m not positive. What I remember—

John Frawley: Oh, ok. Ok.

Charles Warren: —no, I said if I, but I was, but y’know if I was working 24 hours, I worked days. That day, I’d be, uh, and I never, when I was working like that, I uh, never took off to lunch because I was really tired and the only way I could stay awake working that kind of hours is working on a computer, keeping my mind busy. And without doing that, that’s out right there. ‘Cause I can sleep just like this.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Y’know? But uh—

John Frawley: But, but you’re sure that she was, you’re sure that Sheree was supposed to come back and pick Adam [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department].

Charles Warren: Oh yeah.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Yeah, there was no question about that. That’s why—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —I would’ve called.

John Frawley: And it was around, I’m sorry, forgive me, tell me again, 9 or 10 that you’re like “ok.”

Charles Warren: I know it was after, it was before 10 o’clock and after 9:30. That’s all I remember—

John Frawley: Ok, between 9:30 and 10 p.m. You’re—

Charles Warren: —somewhere in there.

John Frawley: —you call Mary and—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —say “hey, where’s she at?”

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And that’s, I don’t know what she did after that.

John Frawley: Mary?

Charles Warren: Yeah. If she got her kids out looking. (Laughs)

Sheree Warren family siblings missing woman
Sheree Sorensen (top right) was the second of four children in her family. Photo: Sheree Warren family

John Frawley: I, I think, y’know, I’ll have to review the case again, I think, y’know, I think she does call around, yeah, try to figure out where she’s at because I’ve talked to Ed. Ed said that she told them that morning “hey, don’t worry I’m not, I’ll be a little late, I’m supposed to meet Charles at Wagstaff Toyota”—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —so she wanted to let ‘em know that she was going to be a little later getting over there.

Charles Warren: Mmhmm.


Charles Warren interview: Plan to meet at Wagstaff’s House of Toyota

John Frawley: Was that something you’d talked to her before that day?

Charles Warren: Oh yeah.

John Frawley: Ok. That was planned the whole—

Charles Warren: Set up.

John Frawley: —set up?

Charles Warren: Yeah, before. And uh, and uh, then it didn’t happen, so—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —I called and told her I wasn’t gonna make it. So.

John Frawley: Ok. You don’t remember why you didn’t go down though, right?

Charles Warren: I don’t.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: Nope—

John Frawley: Was it—

Charles Warren: —it might’ve been a shift that came up or, no, it couldn’t have been a shift. Nope. I don’t remember.

John Frawley: Is this the Supra right out here on your driveway? Is that the one you were gonna go bring down to get fixed, that’s Toyota’s—

Charles Warren: No.

John Frawley: —oh, ok.

Charles Warren: No, it was a black, uh, ’85.

John Frawley: Oh, ‘kay.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: That’s the one I should’ve kept.

John Frawley: Is that a Supra, too?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: And then the other one I should’ve kept was an ’88 turbo I had—

John Frawley: Oh wow.

Charles Warren: —I really should’ve kept. It was leased—

John Frawley: Oh.

Charles Warren: —I couldn’t afford to pay double for it.

John Frawley: Right. They kind of get you on that—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —the whole lease program.

Charles Warren: And then after that, Supras got too expensive and I couldn’t afford. (Laughs)

John Frawley: (Laughs) Well, you’ve got this one out here still.

Charles Warren: Well, I was only paying 8 and $10,000 for it—

John Frawley: Ah.

Charles Warren: —or no, I was paying 12 to $14,000 for it. For maybe ’83 to ’85 and then after that the price went way up—

John Frawley: Oh did it?

Charles Warren: —after the—

John Frawley: For like what?

Charles Warren: —yeah, I paid $25,000 for my, my uh, turbo, ’88 turbo.

John Frawley: Oh.

Charles Warren: And that was a lease, y’know. So, y’know they went up above $30,000 to buy. (Laughs)

John Frawley: Yeah, yeah.

Charles Warren: By ’88, so, that’s the reason I leased it.

John Frawley: Well I appreciate you talking with me. Like I said, this case, y’know, it’s open. It’s an open case but I, questions come up, y’know and—

Charles Warren: I can’t help you with ‘em.

John Frawley: Oh you did, actually. You helped me quite a bit. Umm—

Charles Warren: Like I say, there are bits and pieces but, of everything.

Willow Hendricks: Alice might be able to fill some in, too. ‘Cause she was around helping [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] too. Especially after she went missing.

Charles Warren: Yeah, and that was after.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah, but she was still [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]. You told me that.

Charles Warren: Well, she was actually living down the street at that time.

John Frawley: At that time, Alice was just down the street?

Charles Warren: Yeah, (unintelligible) house. Then she come up after that. And uh, stayed here. Or, I think that’s how it went. Can’t remember whether she came up here first or went down there first. I can’t remember. But anyway, she was here, uh, watching uh [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] that night for sure. Y’know. Uh, because she came and picked me up—

John Frawley: After your—

Charles Warren: —at Denny’s.

John Frawley: —after your jog.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: She picked you up at the Denny’s.

Charles Warren: Yeah. And then, uh, let’s see, what’d I do? I don’t remember doing anything that night after that. Went to bed early. I don’t remember when I went to work the next day or if I did. I don’t know. (Laughs) That I can’t tell you.

John Frawley: It’s a long time ago.

Charles Warren: Yeah, but uh, (sighs) I remember when I start talking to [Jack] Bell, whether it was a week after or, and uh (noise) can’t remember. What day did, did it show he interviewed me the first time.

John Frawley: October 4th.

Charles Warren: So—

Willow Hendricks: Two days after.

Charles Warren: —two days after, then.


Charles Warren interview: Chuck’s whereabouts

John Frawley: Yeah, so this is his, in his report he said that, umm, uh, he, he’d been, uh, calling, leaving messages on your phone. He actually even stopped by, you lived here, right? You were here—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —so he stopped by here, couldn’t get you at the door. Uh, that was on the 3rd, October 3rd. Umm, he, he, he’d, he was under the impression you left work early and then, you went to the police department on the 4th and talked to him.

Charles Warren: I see.

John Frawley: And uh, in his report, he says that, umm, you, you and Sheree met at the Denny’s at 7 a.m., around 7 a.m.

Charles Warren: Couldn’t have been 7.

John Frawley: Couldn’t have been 7?

Charles Warren: No, I’d be, I worked ‘till 8.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: I wouldn’t have left an hour early. (Laughs)

John Frawley: So, so he’s saying it’s around—

Charles Warren: So he’s off there if it’s what he wrote down.

John Frawley: —it’s around 7 a.m., umm, you guys do a custodial exchange, you talk to Sheree about Wagstaff, picking, picking you up at Wagstaff Toyota down in Salt Lake, giving you a ride, she agrees to that. She drives to Salt Lake, you bring, umm, [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] to the Denny’s in Ogden, I guess, and have breakfast at the Denny’s in Ogden.

Charles Warren: Uh, no she brought [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] to Denny’s and I picked him up there.

John Frawley: No, in Roy.

Willow Hendricks: In Roy.

Charles Warren: Oh, in Roy. Yeah. Yeah and that’s—

John Frawley: —I’m just—

Charles Warren: —that’s the way we’d go—

John Frawley: —I’m just telling you what—

Charles Warren: —I didn’t remember Roy but I think that’s right.

Willow Hendricks: I remember you telling me Roy.

Charles Warren: Ok. I must’ve, I must’ve used to drive out to Roy and, and drop him off there, exchange him back.

Willow Hendricks: Because it’s close to her house.

John Frawley: Umm, so I’m just telling you what’s in the report.

Charles Warren interview police report Roy detective Jack Bell
Roy police detective Jack Bell wrote this supplemental report about his interactions with Charles Warren in the days after Sheree Warren disappeared.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: And so, and then—

Charles Warren: Well, I must’ve, because I, I don’t remember it but I do, it must’ve been—

John Frawley: The report—

Charles Warren: —that way.

John Frawley: —the report says you actually drop [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] house.

Charles Warren: No, no. Uh, once in awhile I would but—

John Frawley: But actually, Alice said she had [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] so does that—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —does sound more correct to you?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Ok. Uh, then it, it actually says that you and Alice go to lunch.

Charles Warren: Uh, that day?

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I don’t remember that, but—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —but we could’ve, I don’t know.

John Frawley: Then, you called the bank at around 4:30.

Charles Warren: Somewhere in there.

John Frawley: Yeah, 4:30. And uh, after that you go for a jog and you actually give your whole jogging route to him.

Charles Warren: Mmhmm.

John Frawley: Told him where you jog and how you ended up down on 12th and Washington. I didn’t know it was a Denny’s but—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —that probably, that sounds about right.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: That you’re saying the same thing. Umm, so, and then Alice picks you up at 12th and Washington and brings you here.

Charles Warren: Mmhmm. Yeah. And I can’t even remember what time that was, though. It was probably around 6? I don’t know. I don’t know. 7 or, 7 or 8. Somewhere in there.

Charles Warren told Roy police detective Jack Bell he’d jogged this route on the evening of Oct. 2, 1985. Warren’s estranged wife, Sheree Warren, disappeared from Salt Lake City while he was on this supposed jog.

John Frawley: That she picked you up at 12th and Wash?

Charles Warren: Yeah. Might’ve been before that. Seemed like it was dark, though.

John Frawley: It was dark when she picked you up?

Willow Hendricks: Well, it would’ve been getting dark about 6 or so then.

Charles Warren: Yeah, it was dark or something but, I umm, yeah. That’s why I decided I didn’t want to walk home.

John Frawley: Yeah, yeah. I was just going to say, do you always run in the dark? (Laughs)

Charles Warren: No, no. No, it seemed like it got dark and that’s why I went to Denny’s and had coffee and then I called her and had her come pick me up.

John Frawley: Oh ok, that makes, that makes, so you go, you go for a jog and then you’re there at the Denny’s having some coffee and she picks you up.

Charles Warren: Yeah, I drank a lot of Denny’s coffee.

John Frawley: (Laughs) Do you still drink it?

Willow Hendricks: He does. Yes, he does.

Charles Warren: Yeah. That’s where I’m going.

John Frawley: For lunch?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: You’re going to meet a friend.

Charles Warren: Yeah, Joe.

John Frawley: Ok, well I don’t want to, I don’t want to hold you up. I—

Charles Warren: What time is it? Uh, oh it’s (unintelligible) time.

John Frawley: Awesome.

Charles Warren: (Unintelligible)


Charles Warren interview: Save the detective’s number

John Frawley: Awesome. Umm, you’ve actually helped me quite a bit. Uh, Charles, would you mind if I, if I have other questions could I call you? Would that be ok?

Charles Warren: Yeah, yeah.

John Frawley: Umm, it’s a lot to, to go through, as you can probably imagine.

Charles Warren: (Laughs)

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Yeah I, let’s see here. Umm—

Willow Hendricks: Are you looking at—

Charles Warren: —I got to put his phone number in my—

Willow Hendricks: —save his number?

Charles Warren: —phone book.

Willow Hendricks: Save it so that you know who’s calling.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah, that’s the other thing. Sometimes when we don’t know who’s calling we won’t answer it.

John Frawley: I don’t blame you.

Charles Warren: Well, it’s always these God damn salesmen. Yours is the 10-0, 1066?

John Frawley: Yeah, 1066. Yeah, I called your phone like you said and it said “this phone number’s no longer in service” and I remember you saying call it again so I tried it again.

Willow Hendricks: That’s when he was in the shower, so. I don’t usually answer his phone. He doesn’t answer mine.

John Frawley: When I heard you worked for the railroad, I thought you were like actually traveling from state to state on the railroad. But that’s not what you did?

Charles Warren: No, no, no.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: And your name is?

John Frawley: John.

Charles Warren: John, eh?

John Frawley: Yeah, you can call me John. John Frawley, is my last name.

Willow Hendricks: This is one time that I, like, ‘cause he’s just (unintelligible).

John Frawley: You want to grab it and do it for him. (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: ‘Cause he, he never used to be like this. “How do I do this, how do I do that.” Then he’d get frustrated with it.

Charles Warren: Think I got it saved now.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And I better put a ringtone on it.

Willow Hendricks: Just let it ring normal, honey.

Charles Warren: Well no, ‘cause it’ll indicate that it’s one of them guys calling, y’know.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: He’ll be another 10 minutes now.

Charles Warren: (Unintelligible)

Willow Hendricks: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Let’s see, you’ve got to find it in here.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah, he’s a real easy-going person, so.

John Frawley: Well I appreciate it.

Charles Warren: Make sure it saved it. It should be right there.

Willow Hendricks: Just go to your call logs.

Charles Warren: Huh?

Willow Hendricks: Right there.

Charles Warren: Oh, ok.

John Frawley: (Radio noise) 10-4, thanks.

Charles Warren: Ok. Let’s see. Let’s give you—

Willow Hendricks: Those phones down there, the phones there, the old radios they used at the railroad, the two-way radios.

John Frawley: Oh the, yeah, like this right here?

Willow Hendricks: Yeah.

John Frawley: Motorola?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: Heck, they’re still doing that thing, too.

Charles Warren: Oh, they’re bigger than that.

Willow Hendricks: One’s about that size, the other two, they’re a little bit bigger. I thought that’s where we had the brick phones too but it’s not. I know I’ve seen ‘em down, probably in your other closet.

(Ringtone music plays)


Charles Warren interview: Picking up Sheree’s car

John Frawley: There we go. Alright Charles. So, so, but you didn’t take any, you didn’t take any time off from, from October to November. Is that what you’re saying, or do you remember that?

Charles Warren: Uh, I don’t remember taking any time off. Oh, I took some time off to go get the car.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: But you says that was how long after?

John Frawley: So, November 11th is when, is when I have the car being found.

Charles Warren: And it was some time after that. I don’t know exactly whether it was one or two days, uh, it seemed like I was in a hurry to get down there and get it, to get it out of impound.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Sheree Warren car Las Vegas evidence seal
Sheree Warren’s maroon 1984 Toyota Corolla sat in an impound lot after Las Vegas Metro Police seized it from a parking lot behind the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in November of 1985. Investigators placed evidence seals on the car’s doors and trunk. Photo: KSL TV archive

Charles Warren: Umm.

John Frawley: But up until that time, were you still, you were still here though. Is that what you’re saying?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Did you travel at all? You didn’t travel at all?

Charles Warren: No, no. The only travel I made was to get the car.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: Let’s see. That was ’85. Oh, y’know what?

Willow Hendricks: You don’t have (unintelligible)

Charles Warren: I eventually had to go to California.

Willow Hendricks: And that was later on that year.

Charles Warren: Yeah, it was later on.

Willow Hendricks: It was ’86, wasn’t it?

Charles Warren: Yeah, maybe it was ’86.

Willow Hendricks: I think it was beginning of ’86 you went to Roseville.

Charles Warren: I don’t remember.

John Frawley: What did you have to go to California for?

Charles Warren: Well, the (unintelligible) washed out and they laid us all off. And I had seniority as far as Sacramento—

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: —so I just bumped that job down there and I actually had to work days on the ramp. I loved it. Yeah, umm, worked 10 to 6 with the weekends off. Couldn’t believe it.

Willow Hendricks: I almost want to say that was ’87 or ’88.

Charles Warren: I don’t know—

John Frawley: Would that’ve been, did you—

Charles Warren: —that was, that was that year. ‘Cause see I went to, what year did I, I went to Hawaii. Oh, I can’t remember what year I went to Hawaii.

Willow Hendricks: I think it was before.

Charles Warren: Yeah, oh it was, it was July. (Sighs)

John Frawley: Yeah, you’re—

Charles Warren: —it was June. ‘Cause Richard and I went camping at the end of May and somewhere around the 31st I flew to Hawaii with, uh, six other people. Well, five other people. There was six of us. And then—

Willow Hendricks: ‘Cause I seem to remember you telling me you were down in California for Christmas, or right after Christmas.

Charles Warren: —yeah, I can’t remember—

John Frawley: So, so Charles, did—

Charles Warren: —then after I come back—

John Frawley: —did you go to California between October and November of that year?

Charles Warren: I can’t remember.

John Frawley: Is it a possibility?

Charles Warren: Well, no because I was up here in October. I think I was still, I’m sure I was still working. Y’know, I just don’t remember how it worked out.

John Frawley: Could you have gone to California just before the car was reported found?

Charles Warren: It might’ve been that way, yeah. But anyway, I went to California to work.

Willow Hendricks: That was clear up in Sacramento.

Charles Warren: Yeah, Sacramento. And Alice was bringing the kids down to, to see me. And uh—

Willow Hendricks: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: —I traded the old Corolla in on a new Corolla. An ’86. Brand new ’86. I think that one was an ’84. And bought a brand new Corolla and she was driving that to bring the kids down to see me in Roseville and they, she crashed, wrecked it and she rolled it over about the, the police said about 10 times.

John Frawley: Oooh.

Charles Warren: Left the road at 70.

John Frawley: Alice did?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Was that in ’85?

Charles Warren: Yeah, well—

Willow Hendricks: I think that was ’86. I think you were down there in ’86, honey.

Charles Warren: —it may’ve been ’86. I don’t know, I don’t know. But it seems like it was right—

John Frawley: Well—

Charles Warren: —it had to’ve been when I had the new Corolla. Uh, it had to’ve been ’86 or ’85. It was towards the end of the year because, well, y’know—

John Frawley: It was after you got the Corolla back, is what you’re saying.

Charles Warren: Yeah, it was after that because I traded that Corolla in on a new ’86.

John Frawley: And I’m trying to, I’m  just trying to lock in October and November, just right there. So you, you’re talking afterwards because you hadn’t even picked the Corolla up yet, right?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah.

John Frawley: So—

Charles Warren: So, I probably went down, I’m just guessing, two or three days after I was told it was down there.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Whatever the date was. I worked it out to go down there. I went down and, and got it and drove it back. I don’t remember how I got down there. Somebody’d have to drive me down there. Might’ve been Alice, I don’t know. Anyway, I went down and picked it up. I got it out of, and drove it home. And uh, drove for, ’round town for awhile to make sure everything was ok.

John Frawley: Ah.

Charles Warren: And uh, then I uh, I uh, took it down and traded it in.

John Frawley: That same, in ’85 you traded it?

Charles Warren: Yeah, ‘cause I bought, yeah ‘cause it’s sort at the end of the year. The ’86’s were out.

John Frawley: Oh ok.

Charles Warren: See, so I bought the ’86—

Willow Hendricks: He has to have, gettin’ a new car about every two years—

John Frawley: Ok.

Willow Hendricks: —if not every year.

Charles Warren: I used to do it every year, but. ‘Cause I was actually selling ‘em for Menlove Dodge Toyota. So I’d buy a Supra and sell that one to somebody and then buy another one.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: So—

Willow Hendricks: And he’s still that way.

Charles Warren: —now—

Willow Hendricks: —we’ve, we’ve gotten about every two years now.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Gotten back to every two?

Willow Hendricks: Can’t afford it as much anymore.

Charles Warren: But uh—


Charles Warren interview: A transaction in Elko

John Frawley: I did notice, umm, in the report there was, uh, you had a financial transaction in Elko, Nevada. In the, in the beginning of, of November.

Charles Warren: November in Elko?

John Frawley: And that’s why when you say you were going down to Sacramento, maybe that’s, is that a possibility?

Charles Warren: Financial transaction in Elko?

John Frawley: Elko, Nevada, yeah. Used your, your credit, your Visa card. Or your deb—whatever kind of card it was.

Charles Warren: Well, I drove back and forth between here and, uh, Roseville, uh, every two weeks.

Willow Hendricks: When you got transferred down there or when—

Charles Warren: Yeah, when I got transferred down there, when I bid down there. Or bumped down there, actually bumped down there. Umm, so I drove back and forth every two weeks because, uh, Alice was here with uh, George [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —and uh, she had her sister living with her, too.

John Frawley: Oh, ok.

Charles Warren: And her sister’s kid was a thief which, I really don’t know how much I lost because I didn’t care to look. But uh, I figured all my cell phones would’ve been gone and—

John Frawley: Oh.

Charles Warren: —and anything he could sell, uh, but anyway.

Willow Hendricks: But he’s trying to figure out would you’ve been in Elko the first of November.

Charles Warren: Yeah I would’ve, I would’ve been down there.

Willow Hendricks: Had you been transferred by then?

Charles Warren: Yeah, yeah. I was down there, sure. I was driving back and forth.

Willow Hendricks: But you didn’t pick up the car from Vegas until November 11th.

John Frawley: After the 11th. Couple, few days after.

Charles Warren: November 11th. Well yeah, but, I would’ve been down there, so I’d be driving back and forth in that Supra.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: Y’know, uh—

Willow Hendricks: But were you already down in Sacramento—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: —at that time?

Charles Warren: —I was in Sacramento. I would’ve had to’ve been. ‘Cause I used all my vacation time and all my, uh, I had some other type of leave—

Willow Hendricks: But you were working in October?

Charles Warren: —whatever it’s called.

Willow Hendricks: You were working in October when she went missing?

Charles Warren: I can’t remember whether I was here.

Willow Hendricks: Did you maybe at that time go down to set up your trailer and your living situation with your uncle or whatever that was down there?

Charles Warren: No, no.

Willow Hendricks: Before you started working down there?

Charles Warren: Let’s see, I went down there. I, I took my dad’s trailer and uh, and put it in my uncle’s, or my cousin’s back yard. He had hooks up—

John Frawley: In Sacramento?

Charles Warren: —well, yeah. It’s actually in, uh, what’s the—

Willow Hendricks: It’s a suburb of Sacramento.

John Frawley: Roseville? You said Roseville.

Charles Warren: Well, it’s not even Roseville. It’s a—

John Frawley: Suburb.

Charles Warren: —suburb of that. Uh, actually but—

Willow Hendricks: He always refers to it as Roseville because that’s what the railroad refers to it as.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: Just like Roper.

Charles Warren: That was a—

Willow Hendricks: It’s not Salt Lake, it’s Roper.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: But anyway, uh, I, when I got, when I got the job, I, when I bumped on the job I had to be there a certain date. So I took the truck and everything down a little bit ahead of time because all that time before, uh, I uh, was getting ready to, to go, see.

John Frawley: So, late October, early November you were, you were traveling between Utah and Sacramento to get set up down there.

Charles Warren: Uh, no. Like I say I can’t, I don’t think we, seemed like, God, I don’t know. I don’t know. Umm—


Charles Warren interview: Chuck’s railroad timecards

Willow Hendricks: Who’s one of the railroaders that worked with you at that time that would remember when—

Charles Warren: They’re all dead, honey. (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: Want me to call (unintelligible) to see when it was?

Charles Warren: He wouldn’t know. He was a, he was not even working at that time. He uh, got fired or something.

John Frawley: Is there any way to go back and look at records from, from the railroad, or—

Charles Warren: Not that I know of, I don’t think they kept that, that old.

Willow Hendricks: But he’s retired now from it.

Charles Warren: Well, it was a different railroad. It was Southern Pacific. Sure Union Pacific didn’t keep any of their records. I wouldn’t think.

Willow Hendricks: How far back do your checkbooks go in the closet?

Charles Warren: Uh, I don’t know. I think just the ‘80s.

Willow Hendricks: (Laughs) That’s the time period honey. Want me to go look for a minute—

Charles Warren: No, no.

Willow Hendricks: —see if there’s anything?

Charles Warren: Well, this is what I know. I know that when I went, let’s see, seemed like Alice [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] everybody went with me in the truck when I went down there.

John Frawley: At the end of October?

Charles Warren: Might’ve been. I don’t know. I just can’t tell you.

John Frawley: Maybe I’ll, I guess Alice is the only other person I can ask.

Charles Warren: Yeah, that’s the, (pause) yeah.

Willow Hendricks: [Personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] remember that year.

Charles Warren: Let’s see if she’s around.

John Frawley: Oh, I can give her a call, Charles.

Willow Hendricks: ‘Cause you said you’ve talked to her before?

Charles Warren: She can probably help you figure it out.

John Frawley: Yeah, I did. I can talk to her again, Charles.

Charles Warren: Ok, well, you can figure it out. What we did (laughs) and, and what time she had the accident.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: Y’know, and uh, ‘cause I can’t even remember, I’m sure I got a new Corolla, ‘cause it was totaled out after the accident. And, but they were seat belted in so none of ‘em got hurt.

John Frawley: Oh boy, I’ll tell you what, that’s—

Charles Warren: But.

John Frawley: —that’s lucky.

Willow Hendricks: I seem to remember you telling me that was sometime, that you went down there, right around Christmas or the New Year. But I—

Charles Warren: I don’t, I don’t remember. Nevada was hot and dry because I, y’know, I come across there—

Willow Hendricks: Nevada’s always hot and dry. (Laughs)

Charles Warren: I drove really fast to get there and got, picked them up out of the Elko hospital. I do remember that.

John Frawley: You had to pick them up at—

Charles Warren: Alice and—

Willow Hendricks: After the accident.

Charles Warren: —after the accident, yeah. Picked them up out of the Elko hospital. I don’t remember what date that was.

John Frawley: (Radio noise) 10-4, thanks. So that would’ve been—(radio noise)—negative. Umm, so that would’ve been Elko, then—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —hospital.

Charles Warren: I drove from Roseville to Elko, picked them up—

Willow Hendricks: When they had their accident.

Charles Warren: —yeah. And brought ‘em—

John Frawley: But you were already in California at that time?

Charles Warren: But I can’t even remember bringing them, whether I brought ‘em back to California with me or brought ‘em here. Must’ve, I’m pretty sure I brought ‘em, feels like I brought ‘em to California. But maybe.

John Frawley: I’ll give Alice a call—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —and talk to her.

Charles Warren: She, she can probably remember better than I can.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: So, that’s the only think I can think.


Charles Warren interview: A friend in failing health

John Frawley: Ok. Alright, Charles. Well, I appreciate you talking with me. I don’t want to take your whole morning here. I know you’ve got to meet your friend there.

Charles Warren: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: That’s all he’ll do is talk with him, so.

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Charles Warren: Yeah he’s dying [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department].

John Frawley: Oh, boy.

Willow Hendricks: Getting worse and worse.

Charles Warren: Yeah, I can barely understand him over the phone now. It’s only been, what, two weeks since I’ve seen him?

Willow Hendricks: Yeah, keep trying to—

John Frawley: Just degrade, just getting worse?

Willow Hendricks: —he keeps degrading, gets worse and worse.

Charles Warren: Goes fast.

John Frawley: Fast?

Charles Warren: Most people, most people [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department].

John Frawley: Wow.

Charles Warren: And he’s 65 or 6, 66 or 7.

John Frawley: Sorry. He beat the odds then, sounds like.

Roy City police detective John Frawley describes his efforts to locate missing evidence in the Sheree Warren cold case homicide investigation after conducting a Charles Warren interview in 2015.

Charles Warren: Well, he really didn’t start getting it until, what, 6 to 8 months? Might’ve been a year ago it started hitting him where he started slurring speech like he had a stroke. And that’s what I thought he’d had ’til he finally told me it’s [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department]. Because his hands started deforming.

John Frawley: Oh.

Charles Warren: He’d lose all the muscles.

John Frawley: Uh huh.

Charles Warren: And eventually it, your muscle, heart muscle and all that kinda just, so that’s how it kills you. Just degenerates it, y’know.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: So, but it starts in the hands.

Willow Hendricks: I think he’s the only one that puts up with him so—

John Frawley: Ah.

Willow Hendricks: —he calls every other day almost, says “lets go get coffee.”

John Frawley: He needs, he needs somebody to talk to, probably.

Willow Hendricks: Yeah, he’s a good guy.

John Frawley: Hey Charles, is it ok if I come by and talk to you or call you again if I have any questions?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: Is that alright? I do appreciate your time and talking with me.

Charles Warren: Yeah, ‘cause I hope I can, y’know I just don’t remember, y’know. (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: If you do remember something I’m sure you could call him, too.

John Frawley: Yeah, you have my card, or my number, so if something jogs loose and you’re like “whoa,” please call me and—

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: —and talk to me.


Charles Warren interview: More on Cary Hartmann’s psychic stories

Charles Warren: Well, I’m sure I told him everything. If he just wrote it down, y’know? Umm, then it should all be there—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —y’know, because, umm but, I don’t know. He may, I don’t know. ‘Cause I remember that something about Cary, uh, him or his buddy had a vision of something, y’know, about a pickup it seemed like. And then he told me, I remember him saying now that, uh, that, the pickup that this guy envisioned was Cary’s pickup, basically. And supposedly the guy that was driving that pickup did it. Whatever they did. So I don’t know. And that’s what he told me. I never got that from anybody else. And I can’t remember if he told, told me something else but I can’t remember what it was. It was about Cary. That was after they caught him and was trying to convict him. Or it might’ve been after they convicted him, I don’t know. But uh, but they, he said it was something like he was trying to confess to it (unintelligible) y’know, but I don’t know. Never worked out because him and another cop that worked there stayed friends with, I don’t know if he was an Ogden City cop or not—

John Frawley: Hartmann, or the friend?

Charles Warren: —uh, the, what was Cary’s name?

John Frawley: Hartmann, Cary Hartmann.

Former Roy police detective Jack Bell gives his theory on the source of several psychic tips in the Sheree Warren cold case. Bell believed an anonymous letter that recounted a dream about Warren’s murder came from her boyfriend, Cary Hartmann.

Charles Warren: Uh, and the friend was an Ogden City cop and they used to, he used to ride around with him after he, well, I guess before he went in prison. But they stayed good friends and I don’t know if they did after, I don’t know.

John Frawley: Hmm.

Charles Warren: They told me about, or Bell told me about him and this guy, him and this Ogden City cop, I’m pretty sure it was an Ogden City cop. I don’t think it was a Roy cop. But, anyway. I don’t know.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I can’t remember. But so, if he didn’t write it down but I’m sure he probably didn’t now—

John Frawley: I’m not saying that, I’m just saying there’s a lot of, it’s, back then it was paper, y’know?

Charles Warren: Yeah.

John Frawley: And it’s, I’ve got to go through the paperwork. It’s not—

Willow Hendricks: Digitalized.

John Frawley: —it’s not all digitalized.

Willow Hendricks: They don’t have the cameras on the gas thing to say “yes, we can see you were here this day.”

John Frawley: Y’know, so I’m not saying that didn’t happen. I’m just—

Willow Hendricks: And it might be in Cary’s files instead of the Warren file.

Charles Warren: Well, y’know when, the thing about it is, I was driving, uh, back and forth every two weeks. Uh, from the time I got down to the Roseville area, uh, come home to, y’know, so whatever that was in Elko, I probably would’ve stopped there for gas. That was that waypoint, y’know? If you looked every two weeks you’d probably see a receipt there. Y’know? Uh, probably not at the same station but you would’ve seen it.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: And then once I got [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] stopped and we, uh, we didn’t live in the trailer very long because my dad come and got it to go down south to Phoenix with my mom and then we lived in a, or in a—

Willow Hendricks: Apartment.

Charles Warren: —apartment complex there. I almost remember the name of the town. Anyway, uh, yeah, uh, we lived in that apartment complex, uh, the first one I ever lived in and uh, we had a room on the bottom floor and it was, I think it was two bedrooms, so we had a bedroom and the kids had one and uh, that uh, that’s basically when we, she came down. Well, I know what it was. It was right after the accident. I must’ve brought them back with me and she went looking for (unintelligible). She’s the one that, she’s the one that got me to get this house and get an apartment, so, she went and got the apartment and—

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: —so, uh, but (sighs) I just don’t know.

Willow Hendricks: I don’t remember the time of year it was ‘cause—

Charles Warren: Nope.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Willow Hendricks: —Sacramento doesn’t have real seasons too much.

John Frawley: Right, it’s hard.

Charles Warren: Yeah, it’s like—

Willow Hendricks: A little bit, but not much.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: I wanted to stay down there, actually. But I didn’t, but uh, if I could’ve sold this house in that time, I probably would’ve ended up down there, ‘cause uh, it, it’s just the, I like the, the summer all year round—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —and the heat was, at 100, it’d get up to 106 every day down there. And 106 felt like 95 here. Y’know?

John Frawley: Yeah.

Sheree Warren car evidence Charles Warren interview search warrant fingerprints
A sealed container holding fingerprint evidence recovered from Sheree Warren’s car in 1985 sits on a desk at the Roy City Police Department on Sept. 23, 2022. A storage container holding floppy disks seized from Charles Warren’s house in December of 2015 is next to the evidence bag. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Charles Warren: And uh—

John Frawley: I’ve got a brother living down there right now, in that area.

Charles Warren: Real dry, uh—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: —real dry heat. But anyway, it felt like it. And matter of fact, when I came back here, this area was so much more humid I couldn’t believe it.

John Frawley: Huh.

Charles Warren: But we had the (unintelligible)—

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: everything and uh, I remember that. I just felt terrible and I hated the lights. I run more red lights than—

John Frawley: (Laughs)

Willow Hendricks: (Unintelligible)

Charles Warren: I hated it. You’d be sitting there and nobody’s in sight you have to wait for a red light. In California you don’t do that.

John Frawley: You just go?

Charles Warren: Well no, in California the light’s always green for you if there’s no other cars on the road.

John Frawley: Oh, uh huh.

Charles Warren: It changes for you. That light system down there is 100 years ahead of ours up here.

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: 100 years ahead of ours as it is today, y’know. Geez.


Charles Warren interview: Sheree’s daily routine

John Frawley: Well you have helped me quite a bit, Charles, because it sounds like that day, I’ll try, I’m trying to figure out what her plan was that day. It sounds like her plan was, uh, leave work. You guys met in the morning, sounds like maybe you had time for coffee or something.

Charles Warren: Yeah. We usually had at least 30, 40 minutes before she left.

John Frawley: Umm, she was supposed to get you at Wagstaff Toyota but that didn’t happen. You were expecting her [personal information redacted by Roy City Police Department] and around 9:30 or 10 when that didn’t happen, you become concerned.

Charles Warren: Well she, she would always call me. Y’know?

John Frawley: And then you call Mary. Is that right?

Charles Warren: Yeah, I called her ‘cause (unintelligible).

John Frawley: Yeah.

Charles Warren: So, she want, it seemed like she wanted to get Adam that night and “well that’s ok, I’ll just hang onto him,” y’know? ‘Cause I had Alice there with me.

John Frawley: Let me ask you this, would Sheree’ve, do you, what would make Sheree deviate from that plan? ‘Cause it sounds like, was that more of a routine? It sounds like a routine.

Charles Warren: Yeah, it’s a routine we had every day.

John Frawley: That, that routine that I just explained is what you guys did every day?

Charles Warren: Right, except for that particular day, uh, I wasn’t working so she was just gonna come here and pick him up I would guess, I, but I just don’t know. I can’t remember talking to her about that.

John Frawley: ‘Kay. Alright, well, thank you.

Sheree Warren missing woman son
During the 2015 Charles Warren interview, Warren said he and his estranged wife Sheree Warren had a custody exchange routine prior to her disappearance. Photo: KSL TV archive

Charles Warren: That was, that was a day I was off.

John Frawley: You were off that day?

Charles Warren: I was, or maybe I’d worked that night and got off that morning.

Willow Hendricks: You’re daytime.

John Frawley: So 12 to 8?

Charles Warren: Well yeah, 12 to 8 at working. So I would’ve got off—

John Frawley: Midnight to 8, or not, but you didn’t work ‘till 8, you’re saying. You’d leave—

Charles Warren: No, I’d go to work at midnight, get off at 8, meet her and then I’d wake up, I’d sleep, uh, if I could with the baby and I couldn’t then I’d sleep after I, after I dropped him off to her in the afternoon when she got Adam.

John Frawley: ‘Kay.

Charles Warren: But then I’d come back home and go to sleep until midnight.

John Frawley: Ok.

Charles Warren: So.

John Frawley: Alright Charles. Thank you, sir.

Charles Warren: Ok.

Willow Hendricks: I can get it.

John Frawley: Oh, you don’t have to get up. I’m going to get out of your hair. (Unrelated talk about cat furniture) Alright, well you have a nice day. And uh, I might call you with a question or two. Or stop by.

Charles Warren: Ok, sounds good.

John Frawley: Take care.


Hear where detective Frawley went next in Cold season 3, episode 9: A Picture in the Lobby

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Aaron Mason
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/a-picture-in-the-lobby-full-transcript/

Ep 8: Fool Me Once


Weber County investigator Shane Minor had reason to believe Sheree Warren died at the hands of her boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, on the night of Oct. 2, 1985. But Shane had not been able to corner Cary Hartmann into an interview.

Cary initially cooperated with investigators in the Sheree Warren case. That changed after Cary’s arrest and conviction in 1987 on counts of burglary and aggravated sexual assault. Cary’s crimes earned him two 15-years-to-life prison sentences. Once incarcerated, he’d stopped talking to police.

Police suspected Sheree met with violence on the night of her disappearance, but they could not locate her remains. As a result, the investigation had gone cold for nearly a decade before detective Shane Minor picked it up again in 1998.

“I kind of had to start at the beginning,” Shane said in an interview for COLD.

Shane spent the next several years re-interviewing witnesses, compiling reports and evidence and honing in on a single suspect: Cary Hartmann.


A letter to the parole board about Sheree Warren

By 2005, Cary Hartmann was headed before the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole for a hearing. He’d served 18 years on the sexual assault conviction, three more than the 15-year minimum mandatory term required by his sentence. That meant Cary was eligible for release.

Shane Minor realized the members of the board did not know Cary Hartmann remained a suspect in an unsolved, cold case homicide investigation.

“I felt maybe the board should be aware of that,” Shane said.

Days ahead of Cary Hartmann’s parole hearing, Shane sat down and typed out a letter to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole. The letter summarized the circumstances of Sheree Warren’s disappearance. It also described Cary’s lack of cooperation with investigators since his arrest.

Shane told the parole board about emerging information from witnesses and informants that possibly placed Cary Hartmann and Sheree Warren together on the night of her disappearance.

“Some of this information has been consistent with information known only to a handful of investigators,” Shane wrote.

He concluded the letter to the parole board by saying his investigation would continue, but only at a slow pace.


Cary Hartmann’s parole hearing

Cary Hartmann stood before Kent Jones, a hearing officer for the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole, five days later. They discussed the details of the crimes that sent Cary to prison. Then, Jones blindsided Cary with a question about Sheree Warren.

“I’m a little concerned about that,” Jones said. “I just wonder as to whether or not she’d dead somewhere and you had anything to do with her death or disappearance.”

Cary denied the accusation. He said he had “nothing to do with it.” Cary said he’d assisted investigators early on in the case.

Cary Hartmann Utah State Prison records mugshot
Utah Department of Corrections files show Cary Hartmann began serving his 15-years-to-life sentences for aggravated sexual assault on Nov. 3, 1987. Hartmann refused to speak with police investigating Sheree Warren’s disappearance several months later.

Jones told Cary he did not believe that answer was entirely honest. He said an investigator from Weber County had been in contact with the parole board. The investigator, Jones said, might want to conduct an interview about Sheree Warren.

“I would encourage you to talk to the Weber County people,” Jones told Cary. “I get the information from this investigator that they’ve got a lot more on you than what you think.”

Cary said he would “absolutely” agree to an interview.


Cary Hartmann agrees to talk about Sheree Warren

Investigator Shane Minor and Roy City Police Detective Sergeant Mike Elliott arranged to interview Cary Hartmann on Oct. 26, 2005. Cary was at that time housed in the San Juan County Jail in Monticello, Utah.

San Juan County Utah courthouse
The San Juan County Courthouse in Monticello, Utah as it appeared on January 1, 2017. Cary Hartmann served a portion of his prison sentence at the San Juan County Jail about a block south of the courthouse. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

“There was just some basic information that we wanted to get from him,” Shane told COLD.

The Cary Hartmann interview was audio recorded. COLD obtained a copy of that recording through an open records request. A complete transcript of the interview follows below.


Transcript of the Oct. 26, 2005 interview

Shane Minor: Ok, I’m Shane Minor. I’m with Mike Elliott and Cary Hartmann. We’re in Monticello at the San Juan County Jail. Uh, today’s date is October 26, 2005, and it is about 12 o’clock. Ok Cary, I’ve just explained to you that we’ve come down here and we’re here to talk to you about Sheree Warren.

Cary Hartmann: Yes.

Shane Minor: That’s the only thing we’re here to talk about. Uh, you’re in custody. Right now I’m going to give you your rights, ‘cause you don’t have to talk to us unless you want to. So if you just listen to me for just a second. You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions and to have one with you during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before any questions if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you’ll still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to a lawyer. Do you understand each of those rights?

Cary Hartmann: I do.

Shane Minor: Ok, what I’d like you to do is let him read this Waiver of Rights. I would like for you just to read that and if you understand these rights, and everything, just sign here, and we’re going to sign this too, as witnesses.

Cary Hartmann: Ok. (Sound of pen scratches)

Cary Hartmann interview Sheree Warren Miranda Rights
Cary Hartmann signed this waiver of rights form prior to a police interview about Sheree Warren at the San Juan County Jail on October 26, 2005.

Mike Elliott: It’s about the furtherest corner of the state you can get to with still being in the state.

Cary Hartmann: Well, I started out in Ogden, and I keep moving (unintelligible).

Shane Minor: So you’ve been moved around quite a bit?

Cary Hartmann: Oh boy, my next move I guess is Arizona. And I don’t know—

Mike Elliott: Arizona?

Cary Hartmann: —I’m being facetious.

Mike Elliott: Oh. (Laughs)

Cary Hartmann: I couldn’t get farther from Ogden.

Mike Elliott: Yeah.

Cary Hartmann: So.

Shane Minor: Ok, uh, I guess to start with, what would help us out, and like I’ve explained to you, we’re looking into the Warren case, her disappearance and everything.

Cary Hartmann: So what, you’re lookin’ into old cases, is that it?

Shane Minor: I’m looking into—

Cary Hartmann: Twenty-year anniversary or something?

Shane Minor: No, I’m looking into, we’ve got several unsolved murder cases. You were familiar with Ogden in the early ‘80s. You was a reserve up there. Uh, we have murder cases up there that are still unsolved, have nothing to do with you, ok? But as part of that, part of that group of cases that we’re working this is one of them that’s thrown in ’cause it’s an old case, it’s never been resolved—

Cary Hartmann: An old missing person case.

Shane Minor: —and it’s an old missing person case. This is one of the cases of several others we’re looking into.

Shane Minor: Ok, so this is the only one we’re talking about, and I’m not saying you had anything to do or know anything about the other cases but, there’s other cases we’re looking into, this is just one of them.


Cary Hartmann interview: Cary makes a statement

Cary Hartmann: ‘Kay. I need to, I need to, right at this time, make a statement.

Shane Minor: Ok. Sure.

Cary Hartmann: I absolutely, like I’ve stated a about a hundred times from [Roy police detective] Jack Bell on down, I absolutely did not have anything to do with her disappearance.

Cary Hartmann: Absolutely in no way, shape or form—

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: —did I, do I have any knowledge of her disappearance, up until surrounding the case, and I helped Jack as much as I possibly could, as a civilian, every single day for a year and a half to look for her. So, I have knowledge of that, but I do not have anything to do with this case.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: I just want to state that right now up front.

Shane Minor: That’s fine.

Cary Hartmann: But I’m willing to help in any way I can—

Shane Minor: Well—

Cary Hartmann: —and answer anything that—

Shane Minor: —like I said—

Cary Hartmann: —I possibly can.

Shane Minor: —there’s two reasons, two things that we’d like to talk to you about. One is, to gather whatever information we can from you that might help—

Cary Hartmann: Sure.

Shane Minor: —because you were her boyfriend at that time.

Cary Hartmann: Absolutely.

Shane Minor: And another time is, there’s gonna be a time I’m going to ask you some direct questions—

Cary Hartmann: Ok.

Shane Minor: —just because no one has asked you those questions.

Cary Hartmann: Ok.

Shane Minor: And, uh, if you agreed to talk to us, I was committed to, I’m going to ask you the questions.

Cary Hartmann: Ok.

Shane Minor: I won’t know the answer ’til we ask you.

Cary Hartmann: Alright.

Shane Minor: Ok, so that’s how this is going to work.

Cary Hartmann: Ok.


Cary Hartmann interview: Relationship background

Shane Minor: To start with, if you could give me a little bit of background about you and Sheree, you were her boyfriend—

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: —and do you recall that period of time? I know it’s been a long time—

Cary Hartmann: Pretty much.

Shane Minor: —but that’s something that usually sticks in a person’s mind, like, something like that happens—

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: —that type of an event you remember things. Do you still remember that period time and, like the date? Do you remember when she was reported missing, the year or stuff like that?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, now that’s October 2nd or 3rd, 1985.

Cary Hartmann interview Shane Minor notes and questions Sheree Warren
A portion of investigator Shane Minor’s notes regarding his Oct. 26, 2005 Cary Hartmann interview.

Shane Minor: Ok. Uh, the missing, according to the missing person’s report generated by Jack Bell at Roy City—

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: —uh, she was last seen leaving her work around 6:15 and it’s a Wednesday on October 2nd, ok? At some period of time you had talked to Jack. I know you talked to him a few days later, according to, uh, just a brief synopsis in the missing person’s report. But what I would like to do is, start with, can you describe my relation, your relationship with Sheree at that period of time? Like, how long have you gone out with her? ‘Cause a lot of that stuff I have no idea. I’m trying to find old reports and old information that does not exist.

Cary Hartmann: Uh, we had gone together quite awhile. She was legally separated from her husband.

Shane Minor: She wasn’t divorced yet.

Cary Hartmann: Not quite. This guy was, uh, her ex-husband, he was a piece of work. (Unintelligible)

Shane Minor: Umm, how long? You say quite awhile. Can you remember about how long you went together?

Cary Hartmann: Oh shoot, I’d say, it seems to me we went together about a year.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, pretty much.

Shane Minor: Alright.

Cary Hartmann: Ok. Uh, we got along fantastic—

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: —just fantastic. We were in love. We talked about getting married. Never had a harsh word or a cross word between us through the whole time we were going together, not one. Not one argument, not anything whatsoever. It was just a sweet—

Shane Minor: No arguments.

Cary Hartmann: None whatsoever. Umm, even though her place of residence was in Roy with her folks, she had little Adam, a little boy.

Shane Minor: Mmhmm.

Cary Hartmann: She stayed with me and then commuted back and forth to check on her, her young son all the time, like every day, before work and after work and stuff like that, but she slept over at my house a great deal of the time.

Shane Minor: Do you remember how, much when you say a great deal of time, how often would she be over at your house?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, four or five times a week.

Shane Minor: Weekends or during the week?

Cary Hartmann: Both. It wasn’t really a set time.

Shane Minor: Did she have any clothes at your house?

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh. Yeah, she had a few. Overnight things and a few things. A couple changes.

Sheree Warren jacket evidence Cary Hartmann condo
Detectives observed this gray suede jacket potentially belonging to Sheree Warren in Cary Hartmann’s condominium while serving a search warrant on May 14, 1987. Warren’s mother told police it was the jacket Sheree had left home wearing the day of her disappearance. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: And her son Adam would stay at her parents’ house?

Cary Hartmann: Yes.

Shane Minor: Mmkay. So you described that you were pretty close with her.

Cary Hartmann: Yes.


Cary Hartmann interview: Cary’s timeline

Shane Minor: Now, this week of October 2nd, October 2nd was on a Wednesday. And I printed out, just to help, help explain (unintelligible) it’s a map that I had printed out, it’s just a blank calendar—not a map, sorry—of October 1985. It shows the 2nd being on a Wednesday. To help maybe refresh your memory (unintelligible) if something pops up that you can remember. So, during this week, do you have any recollection at how much she was staying at your place that week or—

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: —what had been going on that week?

Cary Hartmann: I can’t remember anything significant that indicates anything was going on during this week. Umm, I just can’t remember (unintelligible)—

Mike Elliott: Did she stay at your house the Tuesday night?

Cary Hartmann: Yes, let’s see, yes. Because she got up, we got up, she got dressed, put her work clothes on and give me a kiss goodbye and says “I’m going to work, see ya” and I says “bye, bye.”

Shane Minor: ‘Kay, now we’re talking Tuesday morning, from the first?

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Cary Hartmann interview calendar March 1985
Shane Minor showed Cary Hartmann this October 1985 calendar during their interview.

Shane Minor: And where did she work at?

Cary Hartmann: She worked in Salt Lake at the credit union. I can’t remember the name of the credit union.

Shane Minor: The credit union in Salt Lake City. And that was on Tuesday?

Mike Elliott: Or no, Wednesday morning—

Cary Hartmann: Wednesday morning.

Mike Elliott: —she got up that morning?

Shane Minor: Ok, what’s—

Mike Elliott: —Tuesday night she stayed over.

Shane Minor: Tuesday night, Wednesday morning.

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: Ok, so Wednesday night, or Wednesday morning, Tuesday night, she spent the night with you—

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: The day before. Was there any problems Tuesday night or—

Cary Hartmann: Nothing whatsoever.


Cary Hartmann interview: A story about Charles Warren

Shane Minor: Now, did she have any concerns? Do you remember having any conversation, of having any kind of concerns about anything or having any problems with anybody?

Cary Hartmann: Umm, previous to this, she’d told me about her ex-husband, that he was extremely violent [personal information removed by COLD]. Later on he lured, can’t remember his name, he lured—I can’t remember his name—he lured [Chuck Warren’s ex-wife] Alice up Ogden Canyon, uh, on the pretext that his car was broke down, this is in a police report, and he beat her with a tire iron. Put her in the hospital. They tried to get Alice to take a polygraph test, and she got up to it and decided not to.

Shane Minor: About being beaten by the tire iron?

Cary Hartmann: About everything about her ex-husband. About the whole, I don’t think she filed a police report about that, but I think there was a police report made. But that’s what happened. Sheree told me that’s what happened.

Mike Elliott: Mmkay.

Cary Hartmann: So in that, Sheree’s credit union in Ogden, her husband walked, ex-husband at that time—

Shane Minor: Same ex-husband?

Cary Hartmann: Same guy.

Shane Minor: Ok, I think, was it Charles Warren, Chuck Warren. That—

Cary Hartmann: Chuck—

Shane Minor: —is that the person you’re talking about?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: I couldn’t remember his name. Walked in the credit union, and the reason I know it is the credit union manager told me this at the time. I can’t remember her name. But he was upset that Sheree, I think he was paying her alimony, and she was going to take him to court and up the alimony or get child support because she was unable to make ends meet at that time. So, she was dragging him through court, or back into court again, and he was really upset. He went into the credit union, had a suit coat on, the manager was behind the counter or at her desk nearby, and it was also the credit union was right near the college and so I was in there often and knew the, a couple of the ladies and stuff. And his coat come open, and he had a gun tucked in his waistband.

Sheree Warren credit union branch Ogden Utah
Cary Hartmann told police Charles Warren came to this credit union branch in Ogden and threatened Sheree Warren in August or September of 1985. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: And who’s telling you this?

Cary Hartmann: Credit union manager, at that time. I can’t remember her name. And it scared her and scared the teller that was behind the counter. I think she indicated to the manager “look at that, he has a gun tucked” and wanted to know where Sheree was. Uh, I can’t remember if she was there or not. It seems to me that she was there, and they all saw this. And he made a few statements about you taking me to court, and it’s causing me grief and anguish and a few bad words and out the door he went. And this all come down from the manager of the credit union at this time.

Shane Minor: Did, did Sheree tell you anything about that or say anything about that? Or say anything to you about it?

Cary Hartmann: Yes she did. Said it scared her. She confirmed what the credit union manager had said. And she said this is like him. He’s a violent kind of person, anyway.

Shane Minor: Ok but, when would she have said that stuff to you? Prior to—

Cary Hartmann: Prior to.

Shane Minor: —this, would it’ve been like a week before or was that a month before the incident, the summer, or spring?

Cary Hartmann: Weeks before this so—

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: —August.

Shane Minor: And then, when you talked to the credit union manager, what period of time was that?

Cary Hartmann: Within a short period of time after Sheree told me so within August, September.

Shane Minor: Ok. So it again—

Cary Hartmann: —I’d say—

Shane Minor: —you’re talking about a few weeks before.

Cary Hartmann: —right, right. And I can’t be positive about that.


Cary Hartmann interview: “Not a clue” about Sheree Warren

Shane Minor: Ok, that’s fine. ‘Kay uh, maybe what I’d ask you then, uh, let’s put this on hold for just a second as far as the 2nd. You’re talking about her ex-husband. Now, you remember that date, do you remember the time, uh, what you think happened to her?

Cary Hartmann: (Laughs) I’ve asked myself that every day for the last 20 years. I don’t have a clue.

Shane Minor: Have any ideas?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t have an idea, no, not one, not one. She was so responsible, so sharp and so smart that they, uh, the credit union chose her to go to Salt Lake to train managers, to train people to be managers, and she wasn’t even a manager. That’s how smart she was. She was working (unintelligible) So if she said that she was going to meet me at the corner of 12th and Vine, just a figure of speech, she would be there. That’s the kind of gal—

Shane Minor: She was reliable.

Cary Hartmann: —she was so reliable and so, uh—

Mike Elliott: Pretty good?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Shane Minor: Who do you think is responsible for her disappearance?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t have an idea in the whole world. I don’t have a clue.

Shane Minor: So you, you don’t, you don’t have any, any opinion? And that’s all I’m asking you is—

Cary Hartmann: I can appreciate that. I know where you’re coming from, I know.

Shane Minor: Alright, let’s back, let’s go back up then ‘cause I want to just ask you and I didn’t ask you that at the very beginning. She stayed overnight with you on Tuesday night.

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm.

Shane Minor: You guys, you guys didn’t have any arguments, any fights—

Cary Hartmann: None whatsoever.

Shane Minor: What about that Monday night. Did she stay over with you that night? Or what can you remember?

Cary Hartmann: Probably.

Shane Minor: That would have been, like uh, September 30th?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, I would say yes only because I can’t remember. I just can’t remember. ‘Cause like I say, sporadically she would run home and check on Adam, and this was pretty often. She was a very responsible little gal. She would run home and check on Adam and mom and dad. And uh, make sure things were ok there, and sometimes she would stay at home, and then sometimes she would stay with me.

Shane Minor: Ok. But no fights, no arguments—

Cary Hartmann: Never—

Shane Minor: —nothing like that?

Cary Hartmann: —never had one.


Cary Hartmann interview: Sheree’s last day

Shane Minor: Ok, tell me about that morning. She gets up, and where are you living at the time?

Cary Hartmann: On the bottom of 7th Street, below two ladies, rented the basement apartment.

Shane Minor: Do you remember what the address is?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t, I don’t.

Shane Minor: You rented the basement part?

Cary Hartmann: I did.

Shane Minor: She left there and went to work. What time did she leave?

Cary Hartmann: Now, that’s a good question. She got up and she got showered and stuff and got dressed and it was, seems to me it was a little before I went to work at Weber State [College]. And I worked at Weber State and I had to be there at 6 or so-so. Call it, it wasn’t too long before, so call it 5 to 5:30ish, something.

Shane Minor: Weber State at 6?

Cary Hartmann: I think it was at 6.

Shane Minor: And so Sheree would have left around 5:30?

Cary Hartmann: 5 to 5:30, somewhere in there.

Shane Minor: And did she drive straight to work?

Cary Hartmann: Umm, I don’t know. I believe she did. I think she went right straight to Salt Lake from my place. I don’t think she made any stops, not that I’m aware of.

Mike Elliott: ‘Kay.

Shane Minor: Alright, and then you went to work at 6:00 up at Weber State?

Cary Hartmann: I did.

Shane Minor: Alright, so, tell me about your day first. You went to work at 6:00 in the morning up to Weber State.

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh.

Shane Minor: How late did you work there ’til?

Cary Hartmann: Ok, I worked there till about 4:30, about 6 to 4. I can’t remember, I can’t remember the exact hours. About 4:30 I went directly home because I had another job to be to so I got home, I got showered quickly. The phone rang.

Shane Minor: About what time was that that you got home at?

Cary Hartmann: Umm, call it between 4:00 and 4:30 because I can’t remember exactly.


Cary Hartmann interview: An alleged call from Sheree

Shane Minor: You got a phone call?

Cary Hartmann: I did, about 4:30.

Shane Minor: Who from?

Cary Hartmann: Sheree.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: She, she was in Salt Lake at her work. Telephone records verified that. You can check on that.

Shane Minor: Ok, and you were showered and you were on your way to another job.

Cary Hartmann: I had my keys in my hand and I was just headed out the door. I was going to NICE Corporation where I worked on the phone.

Shane Minor: Can you tell me, do you remember the context of that conversation?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, pretty much. She says, uh, “what you doing?” And I says “well, I’m just headed to work, out to NICE.” “Oh, ok.” I says “how are you?” “Fine.” “How was your day?” “Good, I’m training this guy.” Says “it’s been going along ok. Been working with him for the past couple, three, four days.” She says “what are you going to do after work?” And she meant after NICE because that’s where I was heading and got off there about 9.

Shane Minor: Ok, what time were you, do you remember what time you were supposed to go to NICE, work at NICE? I mean, you’re leaving about 4:30.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah so, so maybe, maybe 5.

Mike Elliott: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: ‘Cause the hours were different there. You pretty much got there when you checked in, but you had to be there by a certain time.

This NICE Corp. ad in the December 5, 1984 edition of the Lakeside Review promoted flexible hours for new call center employees. Retrieved from https://newspapers.lib.utah.edu/.

Shane Minor: Do you remember what time that was?

Cary Hartmann: It took me 15, 20 minutes to get there, so call it 5 o’clock—

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: —I think, because I had to really hustle to get there.

Shane Minor: Did you have to be on time or was it the type of place to where you could be a few minutes late—

Cary Hartmann: No, you had to be on time, but you could be there early. Up to the hour you had to be there.

Shane Minor: Ok, and she asked? I’m sorry—

Cary Hartmann: She says, uh, “what are you goin to do after work?” And I says “well,” I says I was going to stop down to Sebastians and have a drink with Dave, my best friend. Dave Moore.

Shane Minor: Dave Moore?

Cary Hartmann: You know Dave.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann interview Sebastians bar Sheree Warren alibi
A bus stop bench sits in front of the building that formerly housed Sebastians bar at the corner of 36th Street and Kiesel Ave. in Ogden, Utah. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Cary Hartmann: And she says “oh, ok.” And I says “well what are you,” y’know, “what’s your plans.” She says, “I’m coming right directly home, I’ll be waiting for you when you get home at the house.”

Shane Minor: So she was coming, she was going straight to your house on 7th Street?

Cary Hartmann: Right. That’s what she said.

Shane Minor: Ok. And then what time did you get off? What time were you getting off work at NICE?

Cary Hartmann: About 9 o’clock.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm.

Shane Minor: And that’s what time you were going to meet Dave Moore at Sebastians?

Cary Hartmann: No, I told Dave “I’ll meet you after work.”

Shane Minor: After—

Cary Hartmann: After NICE Corporation. He knew I get off at 9 so he was waiting at Sebastians when I got there.

Shane Minor: But you get there after 9?

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: ‘Cause you worked until 9, and then you left and met him after that.

Cary Hartmann: Yes sir.

Shane Minor: Ok. When you left work at NICE, did you drive straight to Sebastians?

Cary Hartmann: Straight there. I got there about 9:15, 9:20.

Shane Minor: Ok, and Dave Moore was already there?

Cary Hartmann: He was. The place was filled. Dave was there.

Dave Moore tells KSL’s COLD podcast about meeting with his former friend, Cary Hartmann, at a bar called Sebastians in Ogden, Utah on the evening of Oct. 2, 1985. Hartmann told police Moore gave him an alibi for the disappearance of Sheree Warren, but Moore’s timeline differed significantly from Hartmann’s.

Shane Minor: How did your conversation end with her? She said she was coming straight to your house?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, she says “so you’re goin’ to be all night down there drinkin’.” I said, I remember this, I said “nope.” I said, “I’m going to have a drink with Dave, and I’m coming right straight home.” She said, “ok, great, I’ll be waiting for you at home.” She was kidding, of course.

Shane Minor: About what?

Cary Hartmann: She said, “are you going to stay down there drinking all night?” Said “oh, no, no. I’m going to have a drink with Dave and I’m coming home.” “Ok.” And that’s exactly how it went.

Shane Minor: (Unintelligible) And that, was that the conversation? Or—

Cary Hartmann: That was it. “Love you.” “Love you, too.” “See ya, bye.”


Cary Hartmann interview: The night Sheree disappeared

Shane Minor: Ok, so then I take it, that’s around 4:30 or so.

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh.

Shane Minor: You leave house?

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: And you drive out to?

Cary Hartmann: NICE.

Shane Minor: NICE Corporation. You remember how you drove out there?

Cary Hartmann: Went out and got on the freeway at 21st ‘cause that was the quickest way. Zipped on the freeway and was right there, off the freeway exit.

Shane Minor: Which exit?

Cary Hartmann: Oh I don’t even remember. Right there at the Ogden Airport Exit? Which one’s that?

Shane Minor: 31st Street?

Cary Hartmann: Probably (unintelligible).

Shane Minor: Thirty, I think 31st Street would be the Ogden Airport.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah. That’s, that’s exactly how I went. Puts you on, close to Pennsylvania Avenue.

Shane Minor: Yeah.

Cary Hartmann: Went down the the Airport (unintelligible).

Shane Minor: What did you drive at that, that period of time?

Cary Hartmann: My pickup.

Shane Minor: What kind of pickup was it?

Cary Hartmann: Umm, half-ton—

Shane Minor: Was that the yellow or—

Cary Hartmann: —gold.

Shane Minor: —gold one. And you you stayed at work until 9:00?

Cary Hartmann: Yep.

Shane Minor: Did you talk to her after 4:30 that day?

Cary Hartmann: Nope.

Shane Minor: On the phone, you didn’t call her? She didn’t you at work?

Cary Hartmann: I never talked to her again.

Sheree Warren car Las Vegas impound maroon Toyota Corolla
Las Vegas Metro Police impounded Sheree Warren’s 1984 maroon Toyota Corolla after finding it abandoned behind the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in November of 1985. Photo: KSL TV archive

Shane Minor: Ok so, she left your house that morning around 5:30 and from what you know she drove straight to work—

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Shane Minor: —in uh, Salt Lake. What was she driving that day?

Cary Hartmann: Her car.

Shane Minor: And I might be wrong but does Toyota sound?

Cary Hartmann: Somewhere, yeah.

Shane Minor: Do you remember what color it was?

Cary Hartmann: Maroon Toyota, I don’t remember the year.

Shane Minor: And then you talked to her that one time that day around 4:30. And that’s when you were on your way to NICE Corporation. You worked ’til 9:00 and then after that you go down to Sebastians and meet Dave Moore?

Cary Hartmann: Right.


Cary Hartmann interview: A drink with a friend

Shane Minor: Do you remember anything about that? About going down to Sebastians that night?

Cary Hartmann: I arrived. When I got there, Dave was there and the place was really busy so I ordered a drink, and I drank that. And he said “well, how’s it going?” “Fine.” Y’know, “is Sheree come home from work?” And I says “yeah, she’ll be home from the credit union, she’s gonna meet me at home.” And I said “I’ll have one drink and I gotta go. That’s what I told her, and that’s what I’m going to do, period.” He says “ok,” he says “well, why don’t you call and have her come down here?” Well, that’s a good idea so I went to the phone. Called home. It rang three, four or five times.

Shane Minor: Do you remember what time that would have been about?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, about 45 minutes later. I don’t, I don’t remember exactly. It could have been an hour.

Shane Minor: Thirty, thirty minutes to an hour later.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Shane Minor: So you called your house on 7th Street?

Cary Hartmann: Right. To ask her if she wanted to come down and have a drink with us.

Shane Minor: And asked her? Or didn’t ask her, but—

Cary Hartmann: No one answered. It rang four or five times. I hung up, I went back and said I said “Dave, she’s not there. Something’s wrong.” And I had this sick feeling because when she says she’s going to be there, she’ll be there, period. But whether she had extreme car trouble, or something weird happened (unintelligible), she should have been there, period.

Shane Minor: And then what happened after that?

Cary Hartmann: I went back and I told Dave, I said “Dave, something’s wrong.” And he said “what do you mean?” And I told him what I told you. And he says “well, maybe you ought to call her mom.” So I did. Right then.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: I called Mrs. Sorensen in Roy and I says “hi is,” y’know, “Sheree there?” She said “no, I thought she was with you.” I said “no, she’s supposed to come right home from work, supposed to be at my house.” “Ok, maybe something,” uh. “Did she pick up Adam, or did she have to go somewhere or meet someone?” And Mrs. Sorensen said “not to my knowledge.” And I said “me either.” I didn’t have any knowledge she didn’t have any other meetings planned or she’d have told me.

Shane Minor: And Adam, her son, was at the mother’s house?

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: Did Sheree have to stop by there?

Cary Hartmann: No. Not that her mom indicated (unintelligible).

Shane Minor: And the mother knew she was going to house after work?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t know that. I don’t know that at all.

Shane Minor: Ok, so she hadn’t seen or heard from her. Do you, what time would have that call been about?

Cary Hartmann: To Mrs. Sorensen?

Shane Minor: Yeah.

Cary Hartmann: Oh God, after I called home so within an hour and half-ish.

Shane Minor: So we’re looking around 10:30 or something, 10:30 or 11:00?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, about. That’s pretty rough. I can’t remember exactly.

Shane Minor: Do you remember how long you stayed at Sebastians?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, I stayed there for a while. Uh, had a few drinks. Actually I was thinking maybe Sheree would call, or, because she knew where I was from our previous conversation so she knew where I was. I figured maybe I’d get a call from her. Nothing So, I can’t tell you what time because I just don’t know.

Shane Minor: Thought she might call you there?

Cary Hartmann: Well, I thought the possibility was that she that she would call me because she knew that I was there. If something was wrong, something was up, then she would give me a call. She just wouldn’t leave me hanging, or anyone else for that matter.

Shane Minor: And what time would you guess that you went home? Or what did you do after you left Sebastians?

Cary Hartmann: 11:30, drove straight home, about. I’d say, about 11, about 11:30. Drove straight home.

Shane Minor: How did you drive home? Do you remember?

Cary Hartmann: Uh.

Shane Minor: I know it’s been a long time.

Cary Hartmann: Probably like, probably straight down Washington, I’m thinking.

Shane Minor: Ok. Did you do anything once you got home? Did you make any stops on the way?

Cary Hartmann: Not one. Drove straight home.

Cary Hartmann claimed he’d gone from his full-time job at Weber State College, to his basement apartment, to his part-time job at NICE Corp. before heading to Sebastians on the night of Sheree Warren’s disappearance. The routes for those trips are displayed here.

Shane Minor: And then what did you do once you got home?

Cary Hartmann: Uh now, mind you, my, truck had a, had a noisy muffler system on it. Big old glass pack. So, the ladies upstairs told me “we hear you coming in and out” because I have to traipse up and down the steps and they always heard my trucks in the driveway, leaving or coming or right after in the morning, come at night, whatever. I tried to be as quiet as I could but it was just too noisy. So they knew when I come home. They know when I leave and when I go to work in the morning and stuff like that. I come home. I park the truck right in the driveway, right, right next to the house and go to bed. I didn’t do anything else, washed up. I did nothing else. Went to bed. I had to get up early.

Shane Minor: Ok, so if you left 11:00, 11:30 you’re probably back home and in bed by midnight or so?

Cary Hartmann: 11:00 or 11:20. It doesn’t take long to drive home.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: So—

Shane Minor: So just as a window we’re talking anywhere from 11:20 to 11:45. I mean, you tell me what sounds fair. I’m not, I’m not trying to tie it to the exact time but just—

Cary Hartmann: It’s not—

Shane Minor: —we’re talking—

Cary Hartmann: —‘cause I, I ‘cause I never, ever considered the timelines. How long was I there? When the phone call was made? I never have ever even considered those. Things just happened, y’know, so—

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: —so I don’t remember, but that sounds right.


Cary Hartmann interview: The morning after

Shane Minor: Ok. So now Thursday morning. What do you recall that day?

Cary Hartmann: I got up early, same schedule.

Shane Minor: What time?

Cary Hartmann: Five, 5:30 I believe. I think that’s what it was. I had to be at work at 6. I want to say 6, ‘cause I was on an early, early schedule. I had to be there and monitor the computers to punch in and all that stuff.

Shane Minor: So you got up 5, 5:30 and went to work?

Cary Hartmann: Right.

Shane Minor: Did you leave work during the day or?

Cary Hartmann: No, nuh-uh.

Shane Minor: You work all day?

Cary Hartmann Weber State College timecard October 1985
Cary Hartmann’s time card for Weber State College showed he took 8 hours of vacation time off work on Thursday, Oct. 3, 1985. This conflicted with what Hartmann told police during his interview 20 years later.

Cary Hartmann: About noon is when I called Roy City and filed a missing person’s report. I was getting worried, worried, worried. It was about noon ‘cause they, I remember trying to call them previously, and they said you can’t file a missing person’s report until the person’s been gone 24 hours. I thought “man.” I was just sick from worry.

Mike Elliott: Did you call her mom or her work before noon that day or?

Cary Hartmann: Well, I called her mom that night, and, uh, believe I called the next morning.

Mike Elliott: Did you think maybe she’d come home and maybe gone to work or?

Cary Hartmann: No (unintelligible), no because she like, like I said she’s so responsible she she’d have either been at my house, been at her mom’s house and called me, or called me from wherever she was at. I knew that would absolutely happen. I could rely on her.

Mike Elliott: You think she was in trouble by then?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, she wasn’t home, hadn’t called in, absolutely. I thought something’s up. This gal, oh no. If she hadn’t been dependable, every single thing she said was absolutely the way it was. I mean, her work (unintelligible) the epitome of that, too. She was sharp enough to train managers—

Mike Elliott: Yeah.

Cary Hartmann: —she was line, in line to be a manager when she was 27. Sharp, so.

Shane Minor: Did you talk anyone else, say Wednesday night? She called you at 4:30. You went to work and is that, that NICE Corporation. Is that a telemarketing type of thing or—

Cary Hartmann: Right. Both. People everywhere.

Shane Minor: So you went and did that until about 9 and then you went and met Dave Moore.

Cary Hartmann: I did.

Shane Minor: Do you remember, did you talk to anybody else, call anybody else, talk to them about it?

Cary Hartmann: No. Nuh uh. I did my job. I was worried, uh, that uh, get to Dave, you know. I thought wow, ‘cause I thought, we just loved each other to death, and I didn’t want to disappoint her so I thought, I get, after our phone call if I meet Dave at the bar is it going to be too long, is she going to be upset, am I going to disappoint her, I better hustle home. I even considered telling Dave “look Dave I gotta go.” So I said “well, I’ll have one drink with you, period” ‘cause that’s what I told her. But I didn’t, I don’t, I don’t believe I talked to anyone else.


Cary Hartmann interview: Coworkers at Weber State

Shane Minor: Thursday you go to work up at Weber State. Who did you work with? Do you remember who you worked with that day by chance?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, sure. I had a partner, Denis Kirby. I worked with him all day.

Shane Minor: Denis who?

Cary Hartmann: Kirby. D-E-N-I-S K-I-R-R-B-Y [sic].

Shane Minor: And what was your job up at Weber State?

Cary Hartmann: I was, umm, in charge of HVAC.

Shane Minor: HV—?

Cary Hartmann: HVAC. Heating, Ventilating, Air Conditioning.

Shane Minor: Oh, ok.

Cary Hartmann: I was an automation and, and uh, control technician. So, I run around the offices and dial in thermostats and work on compressors and all this.

Weber State University college heat plant boiler steam
Cary Hartmann worked out of the “heat plant” at Weber State College from 1984 to 1987. The heat plant’s boilers, shown here on June 10, 2022, supply steam to buildings across the campus through a network of tunnels. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: And you worked with Denis Kirby, was like somebody you worked with all the time?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, he was in the same department. And Boyd Hirschi was my boss, and he was in that same office with me. Him and I met periodically all day long.

Shane Minor: Mmkay. So you go to work, work with Denis Kirby. Boyd Hershey is your boss.

Cary Hartmann: Correct.

Shane Minor: Did you run into anybody else or talk to anybody else that morning? Do you remember?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, it was Weber State College campus. It was filled with people, saw ‘em everywhere. (Laughs) I can’t—

Shane Minor: I mean, anybody that you remember having conversations with. Other than a casual “hi, how you doing,” you know, people that were working up there or seeing (unintelligible) something like that.

Cary Hartmann: Uh, no, I can’t, I can’t remember one person. There’s plumbers and maintenance people and we worked with them all day long. And we’re all over in the buildings. But I can’t remember—

Shane Minor: Did you have a conversation with Denis Kirby or Boyd Hirschi about Sheree?

Cary Hartmann: Sure, sure. I said I was worried that she didn’t show up and what should I do? And I discussed with them the whole thing. I was supposed to meet her and related the story just I related to you guys. But I got (unintelligible). Expressed concern because the cops said you can’t call for 24 hours and I’m like “gosh, what am I gonna do” and stuff like that. So I was worried, worried about it. So they knew when I, when I called and what was up. Were right there. Called right in front of them.

Shane Minor: So you call Roy City about noon—

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh.

Shane Minor: —ok, uh, tried to make a report. What happened, did you make any other phone calls to anybody that day—

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: —do you remember?

Cary Hartmann: Not that I remember.

Shane Minor: So you finish, go back to work that afternoon, I assume.

Mike Elliott: After your, noon, I, I assume that you’re that taking, your, you’re on your lunch break when you’re making your phone call because you say it’s at noon?

Cary Hartmann: No, I made it right in the office.

Mike Elliott: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: Right, it was right in the office.

Mike Elliott: But that was right—

Shane Minor: Did you have lunch that day? I mean would you leave the campus or would you stay and have your lunch?

Cary Hartmann: No, if we left the campus most of the time it would be over to Hardee’s which was just on the corner of the campus. But I went with these guys to lunch most of the time.

Shane Minor: You do, all of you would go to lunch together?

Cary Hartmann: Or we’d go to the Union Building or we’d go to Hardee’s and grab something, come back, but I didn’t leave. Sometimes I’d bring my lunch. Most of the time I didn’t. (Unintelligible) I didn’t like packing a lunch.

Jack Bell Roy police Cary Hartmann interview Sheree Warren investigation
Roy City Police detective Jack Bell’s supplemental report from the Sheree Warren case showed Mary Sorensen, not Cary Hartmann, first reported Warren missing. Bell’s report also contradicted Hartmann’s narrative of having remained at work all day on Oct. 3, 1985.

Shane Minor: So how late did you work ‘til that day?

Cary Hartmann: Same shift.

Shane Minor: ‘Til four o’clock?

Cary Hartmann: Yes, yeah.


Cary Hartmann interview: Just a blur

Shane Minor: And then what happened? What did you do after that?

Cary Hartmann: Next year and half is a blur. I think I went home and got cleaned up went to work at NICE.

Shane Minor: How often did you work at NICE?

Cary Hartmann: Oh brother. Seems to me it was four or five days a week, I want to say.

Shane Minor: And was it the same shift, too? You worked Weber State from six in the morning ‘til four, go home clean up and then you’d be at NICE from 5 ‘til 9?

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh.

Shane Minor: And that was four or five days week. Do you remember was it during the week, on weekends too, or?

Cary Hartmann: I think it was during the weekdays, as I recall.

Shane Minor: Monday through Friday?

Cary Hartmann: I believe. Sometimes it was on a Saturday. You know I just can’t recall. (Unintelligible)

Mike Elliot: Ok. So you have no idea of how many hours you worked or you say you worked there part time does that mean you worked there once a week or was it more of a—

Cary Hartmann: Well, I think—

Mike Elliot: —part-time job it sounds like.

Cary Hartmann: Part-time job of like four hours, four or five hours a shift. They wouldn’t allow you work eight hour shifts all the time.

Cary Hartmann NICE Corp call center moonlight job telephone
This office building near the southeast corner of Ogden-Hinckley Airport formerly housed the NICE Corp. call center where Cary Hartmann worked during the autumn of 1985. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: So you would’ve went to work. Do you remember, did you make any calls, inquiries about her? Did you receive any information?

Cary Hartmann: I didn’t receive any information at all. I think, I can’t remember how, how quickly I went out and started talking to Roy Police. ‘Cause I knew Jack [Bell], went to school with him and found out he was out there. Uh, but it was pretty soon after that I wanted to find out what they found out, what they knew, what was going on, called her folks.

Shane Minor: Do you remember when that started?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t. It was that day, the next day, and it continued on. That day, that evening, after I got home. “Have you heard from Sheree?” Over the phone. 

Shane Minor: Did they say anything?

Cary Hartmann: Nope.

Shane Minor: The worried about (unintelligible)?

Cary Hartmann: And I know either I called her work or her mom says “I’ll call her work right away and find out if they’ve heard from her” or anything like that. I can’t remember exactly what she said. (Unintelligible)

Shane Minor: Ok. What about that weekend? Uh, ‘cause we’re now at Thursday. So you went to work Thursday night and back to Weber State on Friday?

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm.

Shane Minor: And then would you work at NICE on Friday night?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, yeah, there again I can’t remember the exact shift.

Shane Minor: ‘Kay.

Cary Hartmann: So when I say “yes,” I’m thinking you’re thinking “well if he says this, and it isn’t,” then he’s—

Shane Minor: No I, and I understand that, I’m just trying to get an idea of the days that you best remember.

Cary Hartmann: Ok. There again, I can’t remember a full shift, whether it was four days or if it was five days. But if I worked a full shift, either four or five, then I’d be back to work on a Friday night.

Shane Minor: You think, what would be your best guess? Take a, just take a minute and think about it. She leaves work on Wednesday night, the 2nd, you had a drink with Dave that night and then you go home. You go to work the next morning, on Thursday. You work all day—

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm.

Shane Minor: —you go to work. Do you remember having conversations with anybody, other than the people you’ve mentioned? Did you call anybody else, do you have any other friends, uh, family anything at all that you talked to?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, sure I did. I called, let my folks know, my, my kids. See, most of the time on Friday nights at that point I picked up my two boys from my ex-wife, and I had them most of the time Saturday and Sunday, Saturday and Sunday, Saturday and Sunday.

Shane Minor: (Unintelligible)

Cary Hartmann: So they knew. They were old enough to understand what was going on. So my kids knew. Uh, I don’t know if my ex-wife did. I don’t recall calling her and saying anything to her at all. We didn’t—

Shane Minor: Ok. But you have them on Saturday and Sunday then?

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh.

Shane Minor: Was that every weekend or every other—

Cary Hartmann: Pretty much, y’know pretty much every weekend. My ex at that time worked retail and so it was convenient for me to pick them up Saturday and Sunday, plus I loved it. It’s just something I did.

Shane Minor: And what was her name?

Cary Hartmann: My ex?

Shane Minor: Uh huh.

Cary Hartmann: [Personal information removed by COLD]. So I don’t know if she had any information. And I didn’t call and tell her purposely. I don’t remember that at all.


Cary Hartmann interview: The weekend after

Shane Minor: You think you would’ve had your kids that weekend?

Cary Hartmann: Probably.

Shane Minor: Do you remember anything else about that weekend?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t, no.

Shane Minor: Do you remember when you went out and talked with Jack Bell, uh, about this? ‘Cause you talked to him at some time.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, I can’t remember if it was in the first few days, here or the first couple days here. But it was right after. I wanted, called him, wanted to know what he knew and stuff like that. So, I don’t know if it was here, here, here or here, I just don’t remember the exact day, but it was, it was within the first week or two or something. First week or a few days or day. I just can’t be exact on it.

Shane Minor: Think of anything extra at this point?

Mike Elliot: No.

Shane Minor: Can you think of anything else at this point?

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: Is there anything you can think of up to this point? Anything unusual or strange?

Cary Hartmann: Uh—

Shane Minor: Or anything different that you remember, that you might have been (unintelligible).

Cary Hartmann: No, not, not at all, whatsoever. The only thing I can, that I can remember is—

Mike Elliott: I wonder, did you speak with the neighbor ladies and asked them if they’d seen her come to your house that night or seen her car around since she was missing?

Cary Hartmann: Oh no, nuh uh. No. That didn’t even cross my mind. She would have no reason to do that, whatsoever. If she was coming, she would be there.

Cary Hartmann interview Mary Courney witness Sheree Warren argument
One of Cary Hartmann’s upstairs neighbors, Mary Courney, described having a conversation with Hartmann about Sheree Warren within a couple days of Warren’s disappearance. Courney provided this statement to police following Hartmann’s arrest on unrelated charges.

Mike Elliott: But I wondered, maybe they saw her come that night and then leave or something. Maybe she did make it to your house and then left. Y’know, that might be something you might ask ‘em.

Cary Hartmann: I didn’t even consider it. Like I say, she was so dependable I just figured for her to be there or not.

Mike Elliott: Yeah.

Cary Hartmann: I didn’t even consider that option.

Shane Minor: Tell me, what was your schedule like around that period of time? And I’m talking about this whole month. You’d been staying with her quite a bit, I mean you’d described she’s been at your house, uh, almost on a daily basis or pretty regular.

Cary Hartmann: Uh huh, uh huh.

Shane Minor: Uh, what did you do?

Cary Hartmann: You mean from then on?

Shane Minor: Yeah, after you went to work and that weekend.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, I went to work, got my kids, come home, spent time with my kids, went to work.


Cary Hartmann interview: Sheree Warren’s friends

Shane Minor: Did you have any ideas where she might be or hunches or anything like that that you went and explored yourself or looked in to?

Cary Hartmann: No. Uh, the whole (laughs), so I did this for a year and a half with Jack [Bell]. I was out bugging Jack every day until he, I’m sure he thought I was just driving him crazy at Roy City police.

Shane Minor: When you say you was out bugging everyday, when would you do that?

Cary Hartmann: On the afternoons after work.

Shane Minor: Between jobs?

Cary Hartmann: Right, or after I got off work with, if my schedule did permit at NICE.

Mike Elliott: She have any friends or anything that she’d maybe hang with or—

Cary Hartmann: Her—

Mike Elliott: —we could go and check?

Cary Hartmann: Her work people. Uh, and they’re—

Mike Elliott: Like maybe usually someone has one good girl friend or one strong girl friend they see quite a bit.

Cary Hartmann letter Pam Volk Sheree Warren
Sheree Warren’s friend and former coworker Pam Volk had dated Cary Hartmann prior to Warren and Hartmann’s relationship. Volk remained in touch with Hartmann after Warren disappeared, as evidenced by this June 11, 1986 letter.

Cary Hartmann: Right. She had the people she worked with mostly were her friends, and she saw those gals all the time. She was extremely friendly. But she didn’t have, I don’t recall one best girl friend. She had a lot of friends, ‘cause she was so friendly with people and stuff and lots of cops, lots of officers stopped in the credit union.

Mike Elliott: Oh, where she worked?

Cary Hartmann: Oh yeah, she was friends with lots of, of officers and stuff, and she would mention that, and I’d say “hey, that’s cool.”

Shane Minor: Do you remember the names of some of her friends? Her, that were her, say, closest friends, or—

Cary Hartmann: I don’t, I don’t. She was friends with and really close with her sister, her younger sister, and her mom and dad were really close to her. I realize that’s family but she was really close with them. And I became close with them also. I’d spend a lot of time out there picking her up and her and Adam then we’d go fishing, and just camping, not necessarily camping but, umm, picnicking and stuff like that.


Cary Hartmann interview: Cary remembers the fried chicken

Shane Minor: Where would you go?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, well we went fishing up to Lost Creek once, her and I, my two, my two boys and her son.

Shane Minor: That was, that was once, you say?

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm, just once.

Shane Minor: Where was the other places you’d go? You said you went—

Cary Hartmann: Uh, to the parks, to just different parks. We’d throw out a blanket and one time her, her and her mom, I said “let’s make, let’s go buy some chicken.” And she said “no, let’s make it.” So her and her mom made, spent a lot of time and made homemade chicken. The chicken was so good. She was so proud she did that.

Shane Minor: But you can’t recall the names of any, any of her friends or close friends?

Cary Hartmann: I can’t, I can’t.

Shane Minor: And you said there was often cops that were stopping at the credit union?

Cary Hartmann: Oh yeah, lots.

Shane Minor: Do you remember who those guys were?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, I think like Carpenter, was it Rob Carpenter? I think he was one. The only reason I mention that is because she mentioned it once. Sometimes when it was close to her lunch time she said that they would say “hey, what’s up? What are you doing for lunch?” And she’d say “nothing, you wanna go?” “Sure.” So she would, y’know. She was just that kind of a gal, real friendly. And she (unintelligible). Officer (unintelligible) I don’t know if he was a road officer at that time or not (unintelligible). Officer Carpenter took her to lunch once.

Shane Minor: Do you know where he worked at at the time?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t. Is he South Ogden?

Shane Minor: There was a couple of different ones. (Unintelligible)

Cary Hartmann: Oh. (Laughs) Sorry, I’m not much help. I just can’t remember. Washington Terrace, South Ogden. And I‘m sure she mention some others, but I just can’t remember their names. It just wasn’t important.

Shane Minor: ‘Kay. Nothing stuck out about it?

Cary Hartmann: No, nothing whatsoever. I thought it was really cool that they would do that, to go up there. And I always thought that it was really neat that she’d be protected and (unintelligible).


Cary Hartmann interview: Returning to Charles Warren

Shane Minor: She never talked about having any problems with anybody?

Cary Hartmann: She didn’t. The only one that she ever had problems with that made me hinky was her ex-husband. This guy, tell you a little story about him, he had a black Supra at the time, Toyota Supra, black sports car.

Mike Elliot: Oh man.

Cary Hartmann: Well, one was stolen from him which could happen to anybody. The insurance bought him a brand new one, and that one got stolen.

Shane Minor: An insurance thing?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t know. Sounds weird to me. So he had this big, pretty red brick, double red that, y’know, red brick home up on the hill in northeast Ogden, and burglars came in one time and took everything he had, including his carpet.

Mike Elliott: That’s some good burglars taking carpet.

Cary Hartmann: I’m telling you.

Mike Elliot: (Unintelligible)

Cary Hartmann: He was in, he worked at the railroad and he was investigated — Jack Bell told me — he was being investigated constantly by UP&S or UPR&R for drug trafficking. They never could quite arrest him.

Mike Elliott: Huh.

Cary Hartmann: So, therefore, that’s why I say he just give me a buzz. (Unintelligible) I haven’t followed up and don’t care to.

Mike Elliott: Makes you wonder how such a nice girl would end up with him, huh? I guess she must have been young, hooked up with him.

Cary Hartmann: (Unintelligible)

Mike Elliott: Was she was pretty nice, did she get along with your landladies and stuff?

Cary Hartmann: Oh yeah.

Mike Elliott: I guess they were your landladies, you rented from them and—

Cary Hartmann: Right.


Cary Hartmann interview: Two women who’d lived upstairs

Mike Elliott: What’d they say when they found out she was missing?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, they felt terrible, terrible. They were really nice ladies.

Mike Elliott: Did you tell them, or do you remember talking with them about it?

Cary Hartmann: I think I did. Yeah, I says “Sheree was really supposed to be here and she’s not.” Called the missing persons. They felt terrible about it. They were worried.

Cary Hartmann interview Kaye Lynn Terry statement Sheree Warren argument
Cary Hartmann’s landlady, Kaye Lynn Terry, described talking to Hartmann about Sheree Warren two or three days after overhearing a loud argument between Hartmann and Warren. Terry provided this account to police following Hartmann’s arrest on unrelated charges.

Mike Elliott: Was that the same week, you imagine or?

Cary Hartmann: Probably.

Mike Elliott: Remember when it was?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t.

Mike Elliott: Did they have anything to say about, y’know, the last time they saw her, or?

Cary Hartmann: Nuh uh. Not that I recall. I don’t even recall the exact conversation.

Mike Elliott: Couldn’t offer you any kind of information or anything?

Cary Hartmann: No, nuh uh, no.


Cary Hartmann interview: Shane Minor’s direct questions

Shane Minor: Well, I told you that I had a series of questions I wanted to ask you.

Cary Hartmann: Ok.

Shane Minor: Uh, and the main purpose of the questions are elimination, uh, type of questions you’re going to be asked about everybody, very similar type of questions. And all you have to do is simply yes or no answers. But the reason I’m asking you these questions is because of different information that has been turned in at different periods of time over the years. And it’s hard to kind of go back and go through some of that when a lot of it you don’t know exactly where it came from or you’re trying to put it together. So the only way I know how of doing this is just ask you straight up.

Cary Hartmann: Ok, let me ask you something. How can you put—I don’t know what it is, and I have no problem answering whatever—how can you put credibility then to these series of—

Shane Minor: Well, that’s, that’s exactly it. That’s, that’s, that’s the problem. It’s hard, it’s hard to put credibility to those things.

Cary Hartmann: Sure.

Shane Minor: I mean, I’m sure you know enough, you’re a smart enough person, you know you just can’t take the rumor, go out and y’know? You gotta do your, your homework and you gotta be able to match things out. And you’ve gotta be able to verify, you gotta corroborate, and you’ve gotta do all that. So you might be told a lot of different things. But we’ve gotta be able to do that.

Cary Hartmann interview questions Shane Minor Sheree Warren murder homicide investigation
A portion of investigator Shane Minor’s notes from his Oct. 26, 2005 Cary Hartmann interview.

Cary Hartmann: Over the years I heard from second-hand, third-hand rumors from this person, just the most outlandish things concerning me and “were you here?” I says “are you kidding me? Are you really kidding me?” That he said, how can you—

Shane Minor: Let me, let me, uh, let me ask you these questions—

Cary Hartmann: (Unintelligible)

Shane Minor: —let me ask you these questions—

Cary Hartmann: Ok.

Shane Minor: —and then let’s go back to what you’re just talking about. Because maybe some of that will tie in to what I’m gonna to ask you. And like I said, it’s just a simple yes or no. Uh, but I wrote down a series of questions, based off of that information that I wanted to ask you. Do you know who is responsible for Sheree’s disappearance or death?

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: Do you think it’s possible her death was an accident?

Cary Hartmann: Sure, it’s possible.

Shane Minor: Did you have anything to do with Sheree’s disappearance?

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: At your hearing last month, you agreed to talk to us. Is that right?

Cary Hartmann: Absolutely.

Shane Minor: Did anyone help you get rid of Sheree’s body?

Cary Hartmann: Absolutely not. I didn’t, nothing, nothing to do with it.

Shane Minor: Did you see Sheree after she left work in Salt Lake on the 2nd of October, 1985?

Cary Hartmann: I never have.

Shane Minor: You didn’t see her any place or any time after that date and time?

Cary Hartmann: Never.

Shane Minor: You reported her missing?

Cary Hartmann: I did.

Roy police records, like this handwritten Sheree Warren missing person report, indicate Warren’s mother Mary Sorensen first reported her daughter missing. Highlight added by COLD.

Shane Minor: I think this is a redundant question I wrote down. I think you already answered it because I asked you if you did you have anything to do with Sheree’s death.

Cary Hartmann: Nuh-uh.

Shane Minor: Did you kill Sheree?

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: Do you know where Sheree is now?

Cary Hartmann: I do not.

Shane Minor: Do you know if Sheree was placed in the area of Lost Creek?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t have a clue.

Shane Minor: Do you know if she was placed in an area above Causey Estates?

Cary Hartmann: No, I don’t have any idea.


Cary Hartmann interview: Rumors and innuendoes

Shane Minor: Now, before I asked you those questions, you said she heard some rumors about what was said. Tell me about that.

Cary Hartmann: Well, someone once said to me, to a girlfriend, “were you involved in her disappearance? Were you, were you arguing with her? Did you get rid of her?” I says “are you kidding?” I says “absolutely not. We were in love. We were gonna get married and never had one, not a one cross word.” That’s absolutely untrue. So that died off. That just died off.

Shane Minor: Ok, but there’s, somebody’s asking you about that?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Shane Minor: And you say it was a girlfriend. Who was the girlfriend?

Cary Hartmann: That was Sheree’s, uh, umm, she worked at Weber State.

Shane Minor: A girlfriend of yours?

Cary Hartmann: Well, she was, she worked right next door in the building. So she was a girl friend. She worked in the landscape department. Uh, that I haven’t seen or heard from in 20 years (unintelligible). That was just a rumor—

Shane Minor: Not a date type of girlfriend.

Cary Hartmann: Oh no.

Shane Minor: But just a female friend, an acquaintance.

Cary Hartmann: She worked right next door so we, we knew the whole crew.

Shane Minor: Ok. What were some of the other rumors that you’ve heard?

Cary Hartmann: Well, uh, Steve Bartlett, my oldest friend on this Earth in Salt Lake, said to me once “what did you do with her body?” And I said “Steve,” I said “are you kidding me?” I said “has our friendship come to this?” I said “I did nothing, nothing with her in any way, shape or form. I know nothing about it.” I was shocked that he would say that.

Cary Hartmann letter Steve Bartlett Sheree Warren murder
Cary Hartmann’s childhood friend Steve Bartlett wrote him this letter on Oct. 13, 1992, after reading an article in The Salt Lake Tribune about a memorial service held for Sheree Warren.

Mike Elliott: He asked you that directly, huh?

Cary Hartmann: In a letter, actually. We wrote back and forth—

Mike Elliott: Oh, ok.

Cary Hartmann: —‘cause we’ve known each other since we were kids. He was a, he was a special investigator, at least he was, for the district attorney’s office in Salt Lake.

Mike Elliott: Oh.

Cary Hartmann: (Unintelligible) He is a great guy.


Cary Hartmann interview: Shane Minor challenges Cary

Shane Minor: The reason I ask you this is because of people, there’s a couple of people that have said that you and her, put the two of you together after she left work.

Cary Hartmann: That’s absolutely, incredibly false. Ain’t no way on this planet. That is a lie, absolutely direct lie.

Shane Minor: There’s no way she could have come to Sebastians and talked to you? (Unintelligible)

Cary Hartmann: Let me tell you, let me tell you, Shane. Dave’s sitting there and the bar is filled with people, filled with people.

Shane Minor: Ok, but the reason I’m asking you because this is what’s been told to us.

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: That’s why I’m asking you.

Cary Hartmann: No, that’s bull, that’s bull crap. And anyone that, that, that, I’m telling you the bar was full of people, and Dave would’ve said “hey, if you come down to the bar with us (unintelligible).” ‘Cause they knew me. I’d gone down a lot, too much. No, that’s absolutely untrue, that’s a downright lie. No way on this planet. The last time I saw her was when she left that morning.

Shane Minor: Left your house?

Cary Hartmann: Yep. Said “see you honey, I love you. Go to work. Have a good day. Bye, bye.” That was that. The last time I talked to her was about 4:30ish that afternoon when she called from her work—

Shane Minor: In Salt Lake—

Cary Hartmann: —and said I’m workin with this guy, and—

Shane Minor: —when she called your house—

Cary Hartmann: Yeah?

Shane Minor: —I mean, now everybody’s got cell phones, but I assume that when she called you on that day, it was to your house, your house phone.

Cary Hartmann: Right. And there, there’re records. And I remember them checking that out. “Oh yeah, she did. We remember her calling.” (Unintelligible) She walked out—I’m sure you know this—she walked out of the credit union with this dude and uh, he says “do you want me to walk you to your car” or something. “No, I’m ok.” And he eyeballed her as she walked away, and she walked over to her car, and he walked over to his. She was going to go down to Wasatch Toyota and take her car and pick up, her ex-husband was coming from Ogden, if I have this correct, and he was going to bring Adam. And then she was goin to pick up her ex ’cause he was going to drop off that Supra—

Mike Elliott: Oh, ok.

Cary Hartmann: —for servicing, and she was going to pick him up and drive them back and drop him off and then take Adam. That, I think that was the plan. Well, the dude never made it. He didn’t show up.

Mike Elliott: Oh, at Wagstaff?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah. And this was what Wag, Wasatch or Wagstaff? It’s down the street on the right. Big old, grand old place. Because I went down there later with my boys and talked to every salesman and person in that place. I think they said “we never saw her or her car come in.” Because she was the, she was the kind of gal that would go in and bop in and say “hey, have you seen my husband or a black Supra and a little boy, a cute little boy. I’m the mom, I’m waiting for them.” That’s the kind of gal she was. She wouldn’t park out front and just wait to look. She’d make herself known, walk right in and talk to them. They told us, the police first of course, that they never saw her car. So, I went down days later, weeks later, took my boys and went into the dealership and said “have you seen a black Supra? Have you seen this guy? Have you seen this gal?” I had her picture. And “nope, haven’t seen (unintelligible). Didn’t see it on the night of.” “The night of, was she in here, did she stop?” What’s his face, dude had a, an appointment to bring it in. “Oh yeah, yeah. He never did show, never did show.”

Shane Minor: Hmm.

Cary Hartmann: I just thought that was odd.


Cary Hartmann interview: Causey Estates

Shane Minor: This is hunting season and are you a hunter?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, oh sure.

Shane Minor: Did you do any hunting that year?

Cary Hartmann: Uh, I, I think I did. I went out most, most hunting seasons.

Shane Minor: Do you know when you would’ve gone out hunting?

Cary Hartmann: Well, it would have been opening morning. Generally it’s the third week in October so probably here. (Points to calendar)

Causey Estates Skull Crack Canyon
The private cabin community of Causey Estates, seen here on Sept. 18, 2022, occupies Skull Crack Canyon just south of Causey Dam. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: Were you in the area of Causey Estates, up above Causey Estates, the weekend after—

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: —she turned up missing?

Cary Hartmann: Never, absolutely not.

Shane Minor: And I’m talking, when I say Causey Estates, there’s a road—

Cary Hartmann: Oh, I know where it’s at.

Shane Minor: —that goes up, and it goes up on top and it kind of borders that Deseret Land and Livestock up on top and I’m talking about on top of there, that you have access to—

Cary Hartmann: Y’know, you can’t get in there through the gate unless you’ve got a key. I never ever, ever in my life went to Causey when I didn’t go through the gate that Dave [Moore] didn’t open it, never.

Shane Minor: Did you ever have a key to Causey?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, no, never.

Shane Minor: Did you borrow a key from anybody?

Cary Hartmann: Never, never, never.

Brent Morgan wedding Causey Estates Cary Hartmann
Cary Hartmann (right) approaches C. Brent Morgan (center) at Box Spring southeast of Causey Reservoir on Oct. 7, 1984. Morgan later told police he’d loaned Hartmann a key to the gate at Causey Estates in the fall of 1985. Photo: C. Brent Morgan

Shane Minor: So, Dave [Moore] had a key to Causey and that’s how you—

Cary Hartmann: Well sure. He had property. And I hunted at Lost Creek. I never hunted at Causey, ever. And I hunted with my brother. And we always put our truck and our camping site right there in the cul-de-sac. People all over the place.


Cary Hartmann interview: Hunting at Lost Creek

Shane Minor: Which cul-de-sac? I’m not very familiar with it.

Cary Hartmann: Right at, by the boat ramp. There’s only one. You get on the road, there’s only one that’s paved, there’s only one that I know of—

Shane Minor: Where is it?

Cary Hartmann: By the boat ramp.

Shane Minor: At Lost Creek?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah.

Lost Creek Reservoir dam boat ramp
The cul-de-sac and boat ramp at Lost Creek Reservoir, as seen from KSL Chopper 5 on May 27, 2022. Cary Hartmann told police he’d camped here with his brother Jack Hartmann a couple of weeks after Sheree Warren disappeared. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Shane Minor: And that’s where you guys were camping, that’s where you hunt—

Cary Hartmann: Yep.

Shane Minor: —that area?

Cary Hartmann: Yep, yes.

Shane Minor: And what’s your brother’s name, which brother?

Cary Hartmann: Jack.

Shane Minor: How many, you got more than one? Did the two of you ever go up and hunt that area up above Causey?

Cary Hartmann: Never. Never. I’ve never hunted it with Jack. He might have hunted it. But I’ve never hunted it. Number one, it’s private and two I couldn’t get through the gate.

Shane Minor: But you’ve been up in that Causey area with Dave Moore before?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, Dave [Moore] and Thorsted and all those guys.

Shane Minor: Pardon me?

Cary Hartmann: Dave and Thorsted, Bill Thorsted and all those guys. In the winter time on our three-wheelers, mostly. Dead of winter, cruising around up there.

Cary Hartmann 3-wheeler Causey Estates winter snow
Dave Moore provided Ogden police with this photo of Cary Hartmann (left) and Larry Muench (right) with 3-wheelers in the vicinity of Causey Estates. The photo was taken in early 1986. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

Shane Minor: Dave and Bill Thorsted?

Cary Hartmann: Mmhmm.

Mike Elliott: Why does that name sound familiar? Bill Thorsted?

Cary Hartmann: He was a SWAT team officer. He was a cop for a while.

Mike Elliott: Oh, was he? Ok.

Cary Hartmann: He worked for NAPA last time I heard.

Mike Elliott: (Unintelligible) sounded familiar.

Shane Minor: And you’ve never been up in that Causey area with your brother?

Cary Hartmann: No, never.


Cary Hartmann interview: The inmate informants

Shane Minor: Have you ever talked about this to anybody you’ve been locked up with? Because there’s been some people that have given statements that would indicate on the statements that they’d give that you talked about what happened to Sheree.

Cary Hartmann: I think I’ve probably mentioned it to a few. It’s not a secret.

Shane Minor: But, but what they’re saying is that you were responsible for her. That’s what, that’s—

Cary Hartmann: That’s bullshit.

Shane Minor: —these people told law enforcement.

Cary Hartmann: That’s bullshit. That’s a, that’s a inmate with a grudge of some sort.

Shane Minor: Do you know who that would have been?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t have a clue. Being an ex-cop in prison would tend to make not everyone your friend.

Shane Minor: I understand. I understand. But, uh—

Cary Hartmann: But that’s absolutely bullshit.

Shane Minor: —but I’m not, but that, that has happened, ok?

Cary Hartmann: That’s bull crap.

Shane Minor: Ok. Over the years that has happened two or three times with a couple of different individuals.

Cary Hartmann: That’s somebody, somebody looking to gain—

Shane Minor: But if it’s somebody you’ve had a problem with, then, then who would that be? Who do you think you would have been that you had a problem with?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t know.

Shane Minor: ‘Cause I can tell you right now: one person called the FBI, and they made several calls to the FBI. And that’s what was, that was the context of their conversations was, uh, about your involvement with this. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to, to talk to you.

Cary Hartmann: I can tell you this being, having been down so long. It’s someone looking for something to gain, favoritism, a break on their sentence, somebody with a grudge, somebody who’s pissed off, somebody who hates cops, somebody who doesn’t like me, somebody who doesn’t like the way I look or my face or—

Shane Minor: Ok. But can you—

Cary Hartmann: —and it’s absolutely wrong—

Shane Minor: —do you know who you’ve had problems with?

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, probably one: Eddie Monteiro.

Shane Minor: And who is he?

Cary Hartmann: He’s just a punk in, uh, Iron County, uh, looking to make a name for himself, looking, I think he told me he was sent in by someone to be an informant.

Shane Minor: Do know you anything, do you remember anything about him? Where he was from or what his charge was, what he was doing time?

Cary Hartmann: Everything he told me was false and fake and bull crap. But I, regardless of him as a person, I never, ever, ever, ever, ever said I had any involvement with her disappearance because I don’t, I didn’t, absolutely no way under the sun, no way have I had anything to do with Sheree’s disappearance. So what he said, I don’t care if he said it to the FBI or—

Shane Minor: I’m just telling you that’s—

Cary Hartmann: —well—

Shane Minor: —‘cause there’s some reports that I have read that a person called and that, those exist. ’Kay, I’m not making that up. I’m not—

Cary Hartmann: Well I—

Shane Minor: —I’m not trying to tell you something.

Cary Hartmann: (Unintelligible)

Shane Minor: But I have read that. That’s what led to the questions that I wanted to ask you.

Cary Hartmann: Sure, I, I just wanted to be absolutely clear on that fact, ten times. No way on this Earth did I tell anyone that I was involved with because I’m not. So it’s a, like I said, it’s an inmate looking to feather his nest, get a break on his sentence. Eddie Monteiro, later, later got a—he said he was in on car theft but I know that was a lie because most of what he told me it was a lie—later he was the inmate that was caught threatening to drive a tanker full of fuel into the Board of Pardons building. And he from there went to max. He got out and got himself in trouble, I remember him doing it, he got out and got himself in big trouble. And uh, the last I heard he was cooling his heels in max.

Shane Minor: Hmm. How long ago would that have been? I mean—

Cary Hartmann: Oh, good question. Ten years.

Shane Minor: Ok.


Cary Hartmann interview: A hard time for Cary

Cary Hartmann: Other than that, I can’t think of anyone with a hard enough grudge. Shane, when I come in this system it was, I’m not going to whine to you or cry about it, but—

Shane Minor: It would‘ve had to’ve been hard for you.

Cary Hartmann: You have no idea. You have no idea. I’m, I’m safe here.

Mike Elliott: Down in this, down here in Monticello? A little better than the others?

Shane Minor: Did you ever have any detailed conversations with anyone about Sheree?

Cary Hartmann: Eddie Monteiro.

Shane Minor: I mean, that’s a personal, that was your personal relationship and I would imagine what you just described to me, you’re not, and I’ve never heard about you, you kept your distance away from other inmates and you don’t really associate that much with them.

Cary Hartmann: I try, I’m very focused. I try and do my time and leave people alone, stay out of their face and do my own thing. Keep my mouth shut.

Shane Minor: Sure. But Eddie Montero is the only person you can think of you’ve had conversations with.

Cary Hartmann: Right, right. Working—

Shane Minor: And what would have the context of the conversation have been?

Cary Hartmann: Oh, I can’t (laughs) remember. He’s the only one that I can think of that, at that time and later on, struck me to be vindictive enough to do something like that. If there’s someone else that come out of the woodwork and there’s plenty (unintelligible). I’ve tried really hard to change my life and to demonstrate the fact that I know that I made huge, huge, giant mistakes in my life, hurt a lot of people, caused pain, agony and grief to my victims and their families, (crying) my family.

Shane Minor: Oh, I would think it would be, it’s been very hard for them, along with you.


Cary Hartmann interview: Chasing therapy

Cary Hartmann: It’s killing my folks.

Mike Elliott: Do they still live up in the Ogden area or?

Cary Hartmann: They’re real supportive and they’re wonderful. They’re both 80. I’ve got a good support system and I’ve made changes in my life and I’ve demonstrated that I’ve made changes in my life.

Shane Minor: And that’s one of the things that Mr. Jones indicated to me when I talked to him on the telephone.

Cary Hartmann: And I wanted to tell you that down here, I come down, I chased therapy around three or four different places. When I get in that, in therapy, it gets sent to Purgatory. Then I go to Purgatory, and, and uh, therapy gets sent to Duchesne. So I go to Duchesne and therapy goes back to the prison. And then they literally take the program out and sent it.

Shane Minor: So your therapy is, the structure’s so that it’s at this place and you can be over here, so then if you go over here then the therapy changes? Is that why you’re—

Cary Hartmann: No.

Mike Elliott: You’ve got to get moved with the therapy.

Cary Hartmann: If you want therapy, you’ve got to go where the therapy is.

Shane Minor: Oh.

Cary Hartmann: It’s only in two places, here and Draper [at the Utah State Prison].

Mike Elliott: Huh.

Cary Hartmann: And I, got me an IPP [Inmate Placement Program] and they got me out of Draper for a reason. So I come down here to get my therapy done. It’s important to me to finish therapy, learn and discover the things that I can do to stop the fantasy buildup, and the things, the thought processes in my head, in my heart to cause me to do what I’m doing. I know that. So I come down here to get therapy, to get it done and to be involved in the therapy program. To go to college, to go therapy and be in a population down, this is the cream of the crop.

Shane Minor: Ok.

Cary Hartmann: This is not the knuckleheads. I’m safe back here, I don’t have to worry about watching my back every five minutes. So I want to stay here. I want to be left alone here. And, and that’s, that’s what I’m doing.


Cary Hartmann interview: A new kind of lie detector

Shane Minor: Ok. Uh, I don’t know how you feel about this but from our position, taking this old case, it’s 20 years old now. Believe me, this isn’t the only case that it’s impossible resurrecting and trying to make headway. With the changes in the police departments and I know you’ve been incarcerated for, what 18 years now or something like that? I’m sure there’s been a lot of changes since what you remember. Umm, things have gotten lost so we have to take, we have to take it from the beginning and rebuild everything.

Cary Hartmann: I was kinda won, kinda wondering why you had to rebuild all this when they have all of this—

Shane Minor: It’s taken me a couple a, it’s taken me a couple of years of tracking some people down and trying to, what you pointed out, verify and corroborate things that have been said. Uh, that’s one of the reasons why when I got a call that said you were willing to talk to us, it was worth the drive down here just to see. Just because no one, these questions have never been asked and there have been no answer to them. There’s, there’s a new thing out there. I don’t know how you feel about it. I can imagine how you can feel about it because of your situation, but I’m going to ask anyway. Uh, it’s not a polygraph, it’s called a voice stress analysis. Have you heard of that or anything about that?

Cary Hartmann: No.

Shane Minor: It’s a test they run. It’s not, I don’t think it’s a very, nothing is an exact science or conclusive, but it’s just an indicator. It works on the same concept of polygraph except for it’s based off of your voice. How would feel about doing something like that as a process of elimination?

Cary Hartmann: I don’t care. I told Jack Bell I’d volun, I’d volunteer for a polygraph.

Shane Minor: This isn’t, uh, it’s not a polygraph and it’s based—

Cary Hartmann: How accurate is it?

Shane Minor: —it’s based off your verbal (unintelligible).

Cary Hartmann: How accurate is it? I don’t know anything about it.

Shane Minor: It’s fairly new, and I can’t answer that other than what I’ve been told. There’s a couple of people I know that have gotten certified. It’s pretty intensive for them to certify on it. You go through, they ask you a series of questions, uh, nothing more than what we’ve already talked about. There’s no secrets or I’m not hiding anything, y’know, or trying to surprise you with anything. I just don’t understand completely how it works other than it’s one of the things that they use these days, and I asked about that, and the kind of questions you’ll be asked will be the same questions that we’ve already talked about, and all it is an indicator.

Cary Hartmann: Hmm.

Shane Minor: And while you’re here I thought we could ask you about it. It’s up to you.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah, I don’t have any problems with any of that stuff.

Shane Minor: If you would do that, I might look in to setting that up. Again, as part of, it would help us in the process of elimination.


Cary Hartmann interview: Eliminating Cary as a suspect

Cary Hartmann: You mean after all this time, me being in Ogden, and her being in Salt Lake City, 40 miles away, at the same exact time, and my whereabouts have been verified that whole time, it doesn’t eliminate me?

Shane Minor: It, it does except for, Cary, one of the things that have happened since you were arrested and, that’s information that came that can’t be accounted for conclusively. That’s, that’s—

Cary Hartmann: My position exactly. How can you verify the source of information?

Shane Minor: —and that’s, and that’s what has led us to this. It’s just one way or the other to do something with it or just shit-can it and move on to the next.

Cary Hartmann: You’ve got to see my position.

Shane Minor: I understand your position.

Cary Hartmann: I mean, I’m dubious as hell about—

Shane Minor: I understand.

Cary Hartmann: —this or whatever, thinking “oh man, what do I have to do?”

Shane Minor: I understand, that’s why I’m asking.

Cary Hartmann: So—

Shane Minor: If you want, I can leave you my name and address, if you want to write me, tell me to shove it or whatever, you can do that. If you want to think about it, that’s fine. All I’m telling you is I’m laying it on the table right now for you—

Cary Hartmann: Well I—

Shane Minor: —and the reason that, that we’re down here is because of that information that came in, that had that been known or come up in 1985, you probably would’ve been asked about it at the time. It would have been taken care of. It would have been resolved at that time. But because it come years later, you see the predicament that I’m in, picking this thing up, uh oh, I think it was 15, 16 years after the fact when I started looking into it, just trying to find police reports and, and find the other stuff. Y’know, the documentation of her car being found in Las Vegas, trying to find all that stuff and put it together so that all that information is in one place which has taken me some time. So that’s, that’s the why. Had it been known at the time, it would’ve, I guarantee you, most likely been asked. A lot of these—

Cary Hartmann: And I would probably have given you the same answer then that I give you now.

Shane Minor: —I mean, I don’t know—

Cary Hartmann: —and I didn’t contact—

Shane Minor: —I didn’t talk to you back then, and I didn’t know you back then, y’know, so I don’t know exactly what was said. You talked to Jack Bell, you worked with Jack Bell a lot, and there was some of, a little bit of a report, a missing persons report, and that’s about all. So there was a lot of information that, that we’re just trying to put together.

Cary Hartmann: Yeah. I can understand that.


Cary Hartmann interview: Sheree Warren’s family

Shane Minor: Just out of fairness for her and out of fairness for her family.

Cary Hartmann: I can only imagine what her folks go through every time there’s a missing person, every time there’s someone found, or found as a hint, it just kills me.

Shane Minor: Yeah, and I’ll tell you when I talk to them, I re-contacted them and started this that was a very hard thing for me to do because how do you, how do you approach an older couple like that? They’re just like your parents. They’re getting—

Cary Hartmann: They’re the sweetest people.

Shane Minor: —older, and they’ve got a daughter that doesn’t, uh, and all they want to do is, is put closure to it. And the only way to do that is whatever remains there is if they can ever recover that. That’s the only way they’re ever gonna be able to obtain closure or, y’know, they’ll just take it to the grave. And that was very hard for me to talk about with them—

Cary Hartmann: I hate that, hate that. I just love them to death.

Mary Sorensen Edwin Sheree Warren parents family
Mary and Edwin Sorensen are seen in a candid moment in this undated image. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Mike Elliott: I think there’s a lot of people that it stays with. One, the two, uh, y’know, ladies that lived upstairs of you. They still remember her, y’know, and remember her coming there that week and stuff. And, y’know, uh, they still remember about her.

Cary Hartmann: It’s the saddest story, it is just a heartbreak.

Shane Minor: Is it, I’ll try to set that up, like I said, it’s just to try and narrow out some of these questions to get an idea so we can move on.

Cary Hartmann: Uh, give me your name and address and stuff in case I change my mind or have a change of heart.


Hear what happened when investigators questioned Cary Hartmann’s brother in Cold season 3, episode 8: Fool Me Once

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Ben Kuebrich
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/527283/cold-the-untold-story-of-the-search-for-sheree-warrens-remains-part-2/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/fool-me-once-full-transcript/

Ep 7: Purgatory


Smoke from distant wildfires filled the air one autumn morning in 2021 when I met my father in the town of Mountain Green, Utah. We wheeled his plane, a small two-seater with a bubble canopy, out of a hangar and onto the tarmac at the Morgan County Airport.

Our plan was to survey a remote area of northern Utah where some investigators believed the remains of Sheree Warren might rest.

I wriggled into the back seat and buckled the five-point harness tight, then placed a headset over my ears. My dad shouted “clear prop” and the plane’s engine roared to life. We rolled down the taxiway in the morning sunlight and turned onto the asphalt runway, then accelerated into the air.

Airplane takeoff mountain propeller Vans RV-4
A Vans RV-4 climbs from the Morgan County Airport on Oct. 2, 2021. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

The plane climbed out of the Morgan Valley, rising above the surrounding hills and mountains. We then headed northeast, toward Causey Reservoir.

I was at the time trying to understand how Causey and the mountains around it fit with theories of Sheree Warren’s presumed murder. The land in question sat about 20 miles east of Ogden, Utah. It was remote, privately owned and not open to the public. Getting up in the air, I figured, was the best way to put eyes on it.

I’d learned a witness told police in May of 1987 he’d seen Sheree Warren’s boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, on that same mountain just four days after Sheree disappeared. And I knew police still considered Cary a suspect in Sheree’s case.


A woman’s body behind Causey Dam

Sheree Warren had disappeared after leaving her work at an office building in Salt Lake City, Utah on Oct. 2, 1985. She’d told a coworker she intended to meet her estranged husband at a nearby car dealership and give him a ride home to Ogden, Utah.

At the time, Sheree was living with her parents and three-year-old son in the Ogden suburb of Roy. She did not arrive home that night and Sheree’s mother reported her missing to Roy police the following day.

An anonymous man called Roy police about a year-and-a-half later, on April 3, 1987. He said he’d stumbled across human remains in the mountains. A dispatcher instructed the man to instead call the Weber County Sheriff’s Office, because the supposed body was outside Roy city limits.

The caller dialed the sheriff’s office and spoke with a second dispatcher, who recorded the call. A transcript revealed the man said he’d found the body of a woman, as well as a purse, while searching for “sediments” in the mountains behind Causey Dam.

The caller refused to give more precise directions to the body. He hung up the phone when the dispatcher briefly placed him on hold.

Police in the Ogden area were at the time dealing with two unsolved disappearances, those of Sheree Warren and of a South Ogden woman named Joyce Yost. Investigators believed the anonymous caller might’ve found either one of these women. But a preliminary search around Causey came up empty. The information provided by the caller proved too vague.

COLD host Dave Cawley visits Causey Reservoir, the place where an anonymous caller told police in 1987 he’d found the decomposed remains of a woman. The body was never located or recovered.

About a month later, on May 8, 1987, police in Ogden arrested Cary Hartmann as part of an unrelated serial rape investigation. Detectives began questioning Cary’s friends and associates. One of them was an elk hunting guide named Allen Fred John, who was more commonly known as Fred Johns.

The story John told led police to wonder if there might be a nexus between Cary Hartmann and the unrecovered body on the mountain behind Causey.


The sighting of Cary Hartmann behind Causey

Sheree Warren case files showed Roy police interviewed John on May 13, 1987. John told detectives he’d been leasing several thousand acres on the mountain southeast of Causey Reservoir when Sheree Warren disappeared in 1985. He ran a guide service and provided his clients access to that ground during the annual elk hunt.

Utah’s general season elk hunt in 1985 opened on Oct. 2, the same date Sheree Warren was last seen alive in Salt Lake City. John reportedly told police that four days later, on Sunday, Oct. 6, he was patrolling the boundary of his leased land for trespassers when he came across Cary Hartmann and another man parked in a clearing.

Cary Hartmann sighting mountain ridge Sheree Warren Causey
This May 27, 2022 aerial photo shows the location where Allen Fred John told police he encountered Cary Hartmann, four days following Sheree Warren’s disappearance. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Cary and Fred John were acquainted, having grown up in the same neighborhood. John told police he and Cary had also briefly been roommates during the mid-1970s. So John immediately recognized Cary Hartmann and stopped to speak with him.

According to detective’s notes, John said “Cary told him that they had been elk hunting but had not done any good so they were going home.” John had found this strange, because he’d never known Cary to hunt elk. Case records also showed John reported seeing another man with Cary on the mountain, possibly Cary’s younger brother Jack Hartmann, as well as two 3-wheeled ATVs.

The account provided by Fred John led some investigators to speculate Cary Hartmann might’ve killed Sheree Warren and hidden her body on the mountain behind Causey.


Sheree Warren at Causey Reservoir?

Causey Dam is an impoundment of the South Fork Ogden River. The mountain to the south and east of Causey divides its drainage from that of Lost Creek, which is a tributary of the Weber River. Lost Creek is also dammed, which forms Lost Creek Reservoir.

Causey and Lost Creek Reservoirs are both significant locations in the search for Sheree Warren. One can picture the relationship between Causey, Lost Creek and the mountain between them as resembling a percent sign: two circles separated by a slash.

Causey Lost Creek percent sign Cary Hartmann
This composite of 2021 aerial imagery captured by the National Agriculture Imagery Program is overlaid with a graphic of a percent sign to illustrate the spatial relationship between Causey and Lost Creek Reservoirs. Causey is visible in the upper left, Lost Creek in the lower right. Photo: U.S. Geological Survey, modified by COLD

A dirt road connects Causey to Lost Creek by way of a ridge atop the mountain between the two reservoirs. The road is gated at both ends. Most of the land on the mountain is privately owned.

The primary gate on the western, or Causey, side sits at the mouth of Skull Crack Canyon. This gate also serves as the entrance to a private cabin community known as Causey Estates. Cary Hartmann had at least three friends who owned land in Causey Estates at the time of Sheree Warren’s disappearance.

One of those friends, C. Brent Morgan, told police in May of 1987 he’d loaned Cary a key to the gate at Causey Estates in September of 1985. Morgan said he was not able to retrieve the key from Cary until at least a week after the date of Sheree Warren’s disappearance.

Morgan’s account meant Cary had a means to get through the gate and onto the mountain behind Causey at the time Sheree Warren disappeared, as well as on the date Fred John reported seeing Cary and another man up on the ridge.

Sheree Warren Causey Estates Cary Hartmann search missing woman
Causey Estates is a private cabin subdivision adjacent to Causey Reservoir in the mountains of northern Utah. The community, seen here on May 27, 2022, is tucked into a canyon called Skull Crack. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

On the eastern side, the gate sits behind Lost Creek Reservoir at the mouth of Killfoil Canyon. This gate served as one entrance to a sprawling ranch called Deseret Land and Livestock.

Cary was familiar with Lost Creek, having spent a significant amount of time fishing and deer hunting there with family and friends during the 1970s and 1980s. Cary had even taken Sheree Warren on a picnic to Lost Creek weeks prior to her disappearance.


Pinpointing the Cary Hartmann sighting behind Causey

Former Ogden police detective Shane Minor re-interviewed Fred John about his sighting of Cary Hartmann in 2001. At that time, John agreed to escort Minor to the location.

John and Minor traveled to the exact spot of the Cary Hartmann sighting together on May 23, 2001. Minor tracked the journey using his odometer. The route he documented ascended Pine Canyon, passing by the shack John used as a hunting lodge. It ended at a clearing on a ridge at the head of the Right Fork Guildersleeve Canyon.

Sheree Warren Causey Reservoir search map photos pictures
This photo illustration combines detective Shane Minor’s odometer notes with a topographic map he marked to show the location where Allen Fred John reported seeing Cary Hartmann four days after Sheree Warren disappeared. Minor’s aerial photographs showing Causey Estates and the clearing where Cary was reportedly parked are on the right.

COLD verified the location by comparing Minor’s notes to maps, as well as by matching photographs Minor took during a May, 2004 flyover. Our flyovers further confirmed the accuracy of the location.

The sighting of Cary Hartmann on the mountain behind Causey led investigators to suspect he might have killed Sheree Warren and disposed of her body there. But the location was surrounded by hundreds of thousands of acres of rugged, steep terrain.

This map shows the location of the Oct. 6, 1985 sighting of Cary Hartmann by the elk hunting guide, Allen Fred John. Routes to the location from Causey, Lost Creek and Pine Canyon are indicated, along with the positions of several gates that block public access to the mountain.

It was too much ground to effectively cover on foot, or even with cadaver dogs. Locating Sheree’s remains, if they were indeed on that mountain, would require a stroke of luck.


Hear what happened when police searched for Sheree Warren at Causey in Cold season 3, episode 7: Purgatory

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Ben Kuebrich
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/526472/cold-the-search-for-sheree-warrens-remains-part-1/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/purgatory-full-transcript/

Ep 6: Lying Liars


Sheree Warren had been missing just over four years when her former boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, reached out to an old acquaintance. Cary wrote a letter to Jack Bell, the Roy City police detective who led the initial investigation into Sheree’s disappearance.

“Dear Jack, I’ll bet you are surprised to hear from me,” Cary wrote. “How are you coming on Sheree’s disappearance?”

Sheree Warren Christmas gift outfit missing woman
Sheree Sorensen (later Warren) poses with a gift in this December, 1978 family photo. Sheree Warren disappeared on October 2, 1985 and is presumed to have been murdered. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Cary was at the time housed at the Iron County Correctional Facility in Cedar City, Utah. He was serving a pair of 15-year-to-life sentences for his convictions on two aggravated sexual assault charges unrelated to Sheree Warren’s case.

Cary Hartmann prison letter detective Jack Bell
Cary Hartmann sent this letter to Roy City Police Sgt. Jack Bell on November 19, 1989. Hartmann was at that time incarcerated at the Iron County Correctional Facility in Iron County, Utah. Photo: Roy City Police

“I didn’t have anything to do with her disappearance Jack, you know that,” Cary wrote.

The letter, dated November 19, 1989, arrived in Jack Bell’s inbox just days after the popular TV series Unsolved Mysteries aired an episode about a different Utah cold case.

“Have you once even thought about contacting ‘Unsolved Mysteries’ about the case,” Cary wrote. “I want to find her as badly as you do so give it a try!”


Unsolved Mysteries

NBC aired an episode of Unsolved Mysteries on November 1, 1989, that described a rape and murder in Arlington County, Virginia. In that segment, investigators described gathering blood samples from potential suspects to compare against forensic evidence gathered from the victim’s body.

A week later, Unsolved Mysteries featured a Utah cold case: the unsolved murder of Rachael Runyan. Three-year-old Runyan had been abducted from a playground adjacent to her family’s home in August of 1982. Her body was discovered weeks later, along a creek in rural Morgan County, Utah.

Cary Hartmann had been serving in the Ogden Police Department’s reserve corps at the time of Runyan’s abduction and would likely have been aware of the high-profile case.

KSL TV aired this report about the abduction and murder of 3-year-old Rachael Runyan on April 11, 1990. Runyan’s case was at that time being profiled on a rebroadcast of the network TV true crime series Unsolved Mysteries.

It’s not clear whether Cary watched either of these specific Unsolved Mysteries segments. His letter to Jack Bell did not mention Rachael Runyan by name or discuss the emerging science of DNA forensics. But Cary’s mention of Unsolved Mysteries was followed by a cryptic pledge.

“I am not guilty of the charges I am here for,” Cary wrote. “I think you realize that also, and I am about to prove it.”


The Sheree Warren case changes hands

Jack Bell had come to believe Cary Hartmann manipulated him during the early stages of the Sheree Warren investigation. They’d been acquainted in high school. Jack suspected Cary had leaned on that familiarity to steer Jack toward a suspect: Sheree Warren’s estranged husband, Charles Warren.

“I missed quite a bit to start with because Cary wanted me to miss that and go after [Charles],” Jack said.

But Jack’s focus had shifted away from Charles Warren in 1987, following Cary Hartmann’s arrest in the Ogden City Rapist investigation. Jack at that time gathered information from two witnesses who’d been living above Cary in a house on Ogden’s 7th Street at the time of Sheree Warren’s disappearance. They’d described overhearing a loud argument between Cary and Sheree at the house on or around the night Sheree disappeared.

Former Roy police detective Jack Bell recalls information he gathered from two witnesses in 1987 about the disappearance of Sheree Warren on Oct. 2, 1985. The witnesses described overhearing an argument between Warren and her boyfriend, Cary Hartmann, at Hartmann’s basement apartment in Ogden, Utah.

If the accounts of the two witnesses were accurate, it would mean jurisdiction over Sheree’s case should fall to the Ogden Police Department.

As a result, Jack had handed the Sheree Warren case to Ogden police in 1987. Jack was no longer in charge of Sheree’s case by the time he received Cary’s letter at the end of 1989. He paid the letter little mind.

“That’s what the letter meant to me: more manipulation,” Jack said.


Cary Hartmann DNA evidence

Days after sending the letter to Jack Bell, Cary Hartmann filed a civil lawsuit. It targeted James Gaskill, the director of the crime lab at Weber State College.

The prosecution in Cary’s trial had relied on serology, the study of bodily fluids, to make the argument Cary was the person responsible. DNA forensics were not at that time established as a reliable form of evidence in Utah’s criminal courts. Serology allowed investigators to narrow down a pool of suspects based on their blood types.

Weber State College’s crime lab had analyzed vaginal swabs from the victim. They indicated the presence of bodily fluids from a person with type-O blood, as well as a second person with type-B blood. The victim in the case had type-O blood.

“We didn’t have DNA back then,” former Weber County Attorney Reed Richards told COLD. “Now we might’ve approached it a little differently.”

Cary had provided the crime lab with blood and semen samples. Testing revealed Cary had B-type blood. His semen sample did not contain any sperm cells. Cary had undergone a vasectomy in 1979, years before the rape of which he stood accused.

Microscopic examination at the crime lab had revealed the presence of “a few” sperm cells in vaginal smears gathered from the body of the victim. At trial, Cary’s defense argued those sperm cells ruled him out as a suspect.


Court battle over blood types

The prosecution disagreed. The state presented testimony that the victim had been sexually active with another man in the days prior to her assault. The sperm cells, prosecutors said, had likely come from that other man.

Cary Hartmann rape trial evidence blood type DNA
Cary Hartmann sits in Utah’s 2nd District Court during his trial on charges of aggravated sexual assault and aggravated burglary in September of 1987. A board behind Hartmann lists his blood type as B+. Photo: KSL TV archive

The prosecutor, Reed Richards, also told the jury serology wasn’t the only evidence pointing to Cary as the person responsible. Cary had made comments to Ogden police detective Chris Zimmerman prior to his arrest about entering the woman’s home.

The victim also identified Cary as the man who’d attacked her from the witness stand.

Chis Zimmerman testimony court Cary Hartmann rape trial evidence DNA
Ogden police detective Chris Zimmerman testifies during Cary Hartmann’s trial for aggravated sexual assault and aggravated burglary on September 17, 1987. Zimmerman had questioned Hartmann about several rapes in Ogden prior to arresting him. Photo: KSL TV archive

The jury concluded proof beyond a reasonable doubt existed to show Cary Hartmann had committed the crime. It found him guilty.


Cary Hartmann DNA lawsuit

Cary’s lawsuit aimed to overturn his conviction. It demanded the release of the forensic evidence gathered from the body of the victim. Cary intended to have DNA analysis performed, in an effort to establish his innocence.

Weber County Attorney Reed Richards did not oppose the request for Cary Hartmann DNA analysis. But Richards didn’t want the state to bear responsibility for the expense.

“I had no problem with any DNA samples,” Richards said. “Problem is, I doubt that they save that stuff.”

In December of 1990, a judge ordered Weber State College crime lab director James Gaskill to turn the forensic evidence swabs over to a 3rd party lab for the purpose of DNA analysis.

Gaskill attempted to locate the items, only to discover they were not in storage. The crime lab did not have any record of the swabs being destroyed. Ogden police had no record they’d been returned to their department.

Cary Hartmann rape kit evidence DNA Ogden police log
These undated Ogden Police Department notes detail the transfer of evidence from Cary Hartmann’s sexual assault case to the Weber State College crime lab. The forensic evidence gathered from the body of the victim was ultimately lost. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

Gaskill told the Associated Press in September of 1991 the evidence had been lost. But the crime lab director also said he didn’t believe DNA analysis of the swabs would’ve benefited Cary.

“The likelihood of anything valuable coming from it is very, very low because Cary Hartmann doesn’t have any sperm cells, and that’s where you get DNA from,” Gaskill told the AP.


A letter to President Bush about the Cary Hartmann DNA

Cary had asked the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole to delay his initial hearing while the effort to obtain DNA analysis was pending. With the lawsuit resolved, the board scheduled the hearing for January 17, 1992.

As that date approached, Cary wrote another letter. He addressed this one to The White House and President George H. W. Bush.

“I am going to enclose a packet of documents that will explain to you my efforts in pursuing DNA testing to prove my innocence,” Cary wrote. “Isn’t this a coincidence, that as I am about to prove my innocence unequivocally, the crime lab lost the evidence.”

Cary’s request for DNA analysis, he argued, was itself proof of his innocence.

“Why would I go to all of the trouble of having this testing done; with great expense, with the tremendous amount of the effort involved,” Cary wrote, “just to have the results come back saying that he is guiltier!?!”

The letter concluded with a request for President Bush to personally intervene on Cary’s behalf, by contacting the parole board.

“I am an innocent man in prison, and I need help,” Cary wrote.

The Cary Hartmann DNA letter to President George H. W. Bush made no mention of Sheree Warren, or the fact Cary remained a suspect in Sheree’s disappearance. The White House did not take up Cary’s cause. No one from the Bush Administration came to Cary’s aid when he made his initial appearance before the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole.

But the issue of Cary Hartmann’s DNA did arise during that hearing on January 17, 1992. A parole board member listened as Cary complained about how the crime lab had lost the DNA evidence. She told Cary he made a “passionate” and “persuasive” argument, but the parole board didn’t hold the power to overturn his conviction.


An informant shares a location for Sheree Warren

Years would pass before Jack Bell, who’d first investigated Sheree Warren’s disappearance, received another letter. This one didn’t deal with Cary Hartmann DNA, or Cary’s protests of innocence. It instead involved a claim of Cary’s guilt of another suspected crime: the death of Sheree Warren.

The letter came from a convicted murderer named David Westmoreland, who’d lived in a cell next to Cary’s at the Iron County Correctional Facility.

Westmoreland had a violent past. He’d beaten and stabbed his own cousin, Maxine Westmoreland, to death in May of 1981 after discovering she was an informant in a drug investigation. Westmoreland fled to Texas after the killing but was arrested and extradited to Utah. He then pleaded guilty to a murder charge and received a sentence of five years to life in prison.

In 1986, David Westmoreland said he was the legendary hijacker D.B. Cooper, a claim investigated and ultimately discounted by the FBI.

So Westmoreland’s credibility was already suspect when he wrote a letter in 1998 stating he had evidence about not one but two murders allegedly carried out by Cary Hartmann.

David Westmoreland prison informant Utah Cary Hartmann Sheree Warren murder
David Westmoreland sent this letter to Utah’s 2nd District Court on January 15, 1998. Westmoreland claimed to have information on two murders carried out by a fellow inmate at the Utah County Correctional Facility, Cary Hartmann.

Jack Bell was by that time a captain with the Roy City Police Department. He traveled to Cedar City to interview Westmoreland on April 16, 1998. Bell’s notes, obtained by COLD, said Westmoreland claimed Cary had confided he’d killed someone. Cary allegedly told Westmoreland “he had not been charged with the murder because the dumb cops could not find the body.”


The Echo Canyon rest area

Westmoreland told Jack the body was buried near a rest area alongside I-80 in Echo Canyon. The gravesite was supposedly “next to a flower garden behind the rest area.” Westmoreland said he’d been there himself once. He described “restrooms with a paved walkway to an overlook that looked down to a small meadow of wildflowers about 200 yards away.”

Bell went to the rest area following his interview with David Westmoreland. From the paved walkway, Bell looked across the interstate and saw orange cliffs on the far side of the canyon.

David Westmoreland informant snitch rest area I-80 murder tip
The eastbound I-80 rest area in Echo Canyon includes short paved walkways to scenic viewpoints. Orange cliffs are visible on the north canyon wall from the rest area. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

The view reminded Bell of a conversation he’d had with Cary Hartmann back in October of 1985, shortly after Sheree Warren disappeared. Cary had described a coworker having a dream about Sheree’s death. The dream involved a truck stop in the mountain and red rock cliffs. Bell believed the view from the rest area matched the description of the truck stop in the mountains Cary had provided.

“So boom,” Jack said. “That’s what I got out of what Cary supposedly told Westmoreland: where she was at was up there.”


Hear what happened when police searched for Sheree at the Echo Canyon rest area in Cold season 3, episode 6: Lying Liars

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Adam Mason
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/lying-liars-full-transcript/

Ep 5: Nighthawk


Police in Ogden, Utah spent the mid-1980s searching for a man detectives dubbed the Ogden City Rapist. They identified more than 12 cases from 1984, 1985 and 1986 in which a man sexually assaulted or attempted to assault women in their own homes.

The cases bore commonalities that led investigators to believe one man might be responsible for most or all of the crimes: he targeted divorced or single women with children, he entered through unlocked windows or doors, threatened the lives of the women’s children and sometimes mentioned police department connections.

Ogden city rapist police investigation notes timeline
Ogden police detectives investigated a string of similar rape cases in 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987. Commonalities led investigators to believe the cases were all tied to a single suspect.

Tips eventually led police to a suspect toward the end of 1986. He was a former member of their own department’s volunteer reserve corps, a man named Cary Hartmann.


The Ogden City Rapist investigation

Ogden police arrested Cary Hartmann on suspicion of rape on May 8, 1987. Cary’s mugshot from the Weber County Jail showed at the time of his arrest he had dark brown hair and a thick mustache.

Cary Hartmann Ogden City Rapist investigation briefing police
Ogden City Police held a briefing on May 11, 1987 regarding the arrest of Cary Hartmann in connection with multiple sexual assault cases. Cary’s mugshot, which was attached to the briefing sheet, showed he wore a mustache at the time of his arrest. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

News coverage of Cary’s arrest generated a flood of new leads for the investigators. One of them, former Ogden police detective Shane Minor, spoke to COLD about his role in the case.

“I took a couple of date rape-type of phone calls, where people called in, said they’d gone out with [Cary] and it’d gone a little too far but they were too embarrassed to come forward or call it in [at the time],” Shane said.

Weber County prosecutors subsequently filed criminal charges against Cary in connection with four separate sexual assaults dating from March, May, June and October of 1986. In each case, investigators believed they could link Cary to the victims through statements he’d made following his arrest, as well as physical evidence.

One of the four women told prosecutors she wanted to try and identify her attacker from a line-up. Police records from the Ogden City Rapist investigation obtained by COLD show the line-up took place on May 27, 1987.

Ogden City Rapist line up Cary Hartmann David cousin
Ogden police and the Weber County Attorney’s Office held a line-up on May 27, 1987 for a sexual assault victim. Cary Hartmann was number 4 in the line-up, his cousin David Hartmann was number 6. The woman struggled to make an identification between numbers 4 and 6. Highlights added by COLD.

Cary, through his defense attorney, arranged to have his brother, Jack Hartmann, and cousin, David Hartmann, standing in the line-up with him. He’d also shaved his mustache and lightened his hair prior to the line-up. A transcript of the line-up showed the woman wavered between identifying Cary or David Hartmann as her attacker. David Hartmann bore a strong resemblance to his cousin Cary.

In personal notes Cary made regarding the line-up later that same day, Cary wrote David Hartmann “saved our buns.”


Cary Hartmann’s trial in the Ogden City Rapist case

Cary stood trial on the first of the sexual assault cases in September of 1987. The woman who’d attempted to pick her attacker out from the line-up testified, expressing anger at having been “set up.”

Cary Hartmann rape trial court Ogden City Rapist
Cary Hartmann sits in Utah’s 2nd District Court on Sept. 16,1987 during his trial on charges of aggravated sexual assault and burglary. Hartmann had shaved his mustache and lightened his hair following his arrest in the Ogden City Rapist investigation. Photo: KSL TV archive

Cary took the witness stand in his own defense days later. He denied having ever seen the woman and said he’d never raped anyone. Cary’s defense portrayed him as a man falsely accused of being a serial predator, of being the Ogden City Rapist.

A prosecutor asked Cary why he’d shaved his mustache prior to the line-up. Cary said he’d felt disgusted by conditions inside the Weber County Jail and wanted “to be clean” after posting bail, according to a Sept. 19, 1987 story in The Salt Lake Tribune.

The jury returned guilty verdicts against Cary Hartmann on counts of aggravated sexual assault and burglary on Sept. 22, 1987. The judge ordered the preparation of a pre-sentence report. An investigator with Utah Adult Probation and Parole spent three weeks compiling the report. It concluded with a recommendation that the judge impose a maximum sentence.

“The defendant is very intelligent and cunning and because of this is probably more dangerous than if he were not so astute,” investigator Kendell Phillips wrote.

Ogden City Rapist boot print evidence
Ogden City Police photographed boot prints outside the home of a sexual assault victim on May 16, 1986. Cary Hartmann was later arrested, tried and convicted in connection with this sexual assault. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

Utah 2nd District Court Judge David Roth heeded that advice. On November 2, 1987, Roth sentenced Cary Hartmann to two terms of 15-years-to-life, as well as one term of 5-years-to-life, in the Utah State Prison.


Searching for Sheree Warren’s body

Weber County Attorney Reed Richards had convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Cary Hartmann committed the crime of sexual assault. But he’d declined to charge Cary with a crime related to Sheree Warren’s disappearance.

“He was a rapist,” Reed said, “he was not, as far as we knew, a killer.”

Reed Richards Weber County Attorney Cary Hartmann sentencing
Weber County Attorney Reed Richards speaks to reporters following Cary Hartmann’s sentencing on November 2, 1987. Photo: KSL TV archive

Reed didn’t believe the case was strong enough in the absence of direct physical evidence. Most critically, police had failed to locate Sheree Warren’s body, or to uncover any other proof she was dead.

“If you charge a case like that and you can get through the preliminary hearing, where you’ve got to show probable cause, then you’re ending up with a trial,” Reed said during an interview for COLD. “If you go to trial and don’t get a conviction, you’re all done. You’ve got double jeopardy that steps in and even if you get perfect proof later on, you’re dead.”

But Cary Hartmann’s sentence in the sexual assault case carried what’s known as a “minimum mandatory.” It meant Cary had to serve at least 15 years before he could possibly qualify for parole. Reed, the prosecutor, believed that gave investigators looking into Sheree Warren’s presumed death the advantage of time.

“So the decision was made ‘let’s keep investigating it’ and ‘he’s not going anywhere, let’s see if we can find some additional information, maybe we can find the body,’” Reed said.


Silence about Sheree Warren

Cary Hartmann began serving his sentence on November 3, 1987. He immediately requested a transfer out of the Utah State Prison, stating his status as a former reserve officer for the Ogden Police Department made remaining at the prison a threat to his safety. A warden agreed and moved Cary to the Sanpete County Jail in Manti, Utah.

At the beginning of February, 1988, Cary accepted a deal that resolved three additional sexual assault cases. He pleaded guilty to an amended charge of rape in one of those four cases. In exchange, prosecutors dismissed charges from the remaining two cases.

Cary Hartmann mustache rape plea deal
Cary Hartmann pleaded guilty to rape, a 1st degree felony, as part of an agreement with prosecutors in Weber County, Utah on February 4, 1988. Archive news footage showed Hartmann had regrown his mustache at that time. Photo: KSL TV archive

Weeks later, Ogden police detectives Chris Zimmerman and Shane Minor made an unannounced trip to the Sanpete County Jail with the intent of interviewing Cary about Sheree Warren’s disappearance.

“We thought we’d give it a try,” Shane said. “He wouldn’t talk to us. Walked in the room, seen we were sitting there, turned around and walked out.”


A letter from an old friend

One of Cary’s close friends wrote him a letter during this same period. Steven “Kaiser” Bartlett had grown up with Cary in Uintah, Utah. They’d attended Bonneville High School together and remained close into adulthood.

Cary Hartmann Steve Bartlett Bonneville High yearbook
Cary Hartmann and Steve Bartlett appear in the 1966 Bonneville High School yearbook.

“From the very first time we colored with the big crayons, I knew we would always be friends and we could talk to each other no matter what happened in life,” Bartlett wrote in a letter to Cary dated February 12, 1988.

Steve Bartlett had pursued a career in law enforcement, as both a deputy for the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office and an investigator for the Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office. He wrote that he struggled to understand why Cary had committed the crimes.

Cary Hartmann Steve Bartlett Sheree Warren letter
Steve Bartlett wrote this letter to his childhood friend Cary Hartmann following Cary’s guilty plea to a rape charge in February of 1988.

Cary had enlisted Bartlett’s help in trying to find Sheree Warren in the first days and weeks following her disappearance. But in this letter a little over two years later, Bartlett suggested he’d come to believe Cary was responsible for Sheree’s presumed death. He asked Cary to confess.

“I can’t make promises, but I am interested in finding her and not causing you any more legal problems,” Bartlett wrote.

In a reply letter dated March 23, 1987, Cary denied responsibility for the sexual assaults. He said he had not been picked out of a line-up, failing to acknowledge how he’d altered his appearance and stacked the line-up with two relatives. Cary also told Bartlett he did not know what’d happened to Sheree.

“I did not do any of these things,” Cary wrote. “I forgive you, your insecurities toward me.”


Steve Bartlett’s emotional appeal

Steve Bartlett sent Cary a second letter on April 17, 1988. In it, Bartlett brushed aside his old friend Cary’s denials.

“As the jury deliberated, I felt sorry about the whole situation,” Bartlett wrote, in reference to Cary’s sexual assault trial six months prior. “My heart was on your side but my mind said otherwise. My head could not overcome the evidence.”

Bartlett also said he still believed Cary was withholding information about Sheree Warren.

“Maybe she deserved whatever she got but I am certain you are not telling me everything you know about what happened to her or where she is now,” Bartlett wrote. “Friends don’t lie to friends, remember?”

Cary Hartmann Steve Bartlett Sheree Warren letter
Cary Hartmann sent this letter to his childhood friend, Steve Bartlett, on May 18, 1988.

Cary, in a reply dated May 18, 1988, again insisted he had no knowledge of Sheree Warren’s fate.

“I loved her Steve, that is the truth,” Cary wrote.


Hear what happened when Sheree Warren’s family held a memorial in her memory in Cold season 3, episode 5: Nighthawk

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Aaron Mason
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
KSL companion story: https://ksltv.com/529482/cold-podcast-witness-undermines-alibi-in-sheree-warren-cold-case/
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/nighthawk-full-transcript/

Ep 4: The Supper Club


The Ogden City Police Department had a problem.

An informant had told detective Chris Zimmerman in October of 1986 she believed a former police reserve officer named Cary Hartmann was responsible for a string of unsolved sexual assaults. Zimmerman had also developed evidence suggesting Cary had made thousands of obscene lingerie survey phone calls to women in northern Utah during the 1980s.

Worse yet, police in the nearby suburb of Roy, Utah were viewing Cary Hartmann a suspect in the unsolved Oct. 2, 1985 disappearance of Sheree Warren. Cary and Sheree had been dating at the time Sheree was last seen.

This undated photo shows Sheree Sorensen Warren, who disappeared from Salt Lake City, Utah on Oct. 2, 1985. Police believe Warren was murdered, but her remains have never been located. Photo: Sheree Warren family

Cary had friends within the Ogden Police Department, dating back to a stint he’d served in the department’s reserve corps. This was the problem that faced detectives. They needed to prevent those officers from learning Cary was the target of a burgeoning investigation.


Cary Hartmann’s lingerie survey phone calls

The full story of the Ogden Police Department’s investigation into Cary Hartmann in 1986 and 1987 has not previously been told. The detectives responsible kept much of their work off the books. They hoped to keep Cary from realizing he was a suspect. But COLD has obtained previously unreleased police records through public records requests. They provide new detail about how the case against Cary Hartmann progressed.

Detective Chris Zimmerman asked a judge for permission to monitor Cary’s home phone number beginning in November of 1986. In his application for a “pen register” device, Zimmerman wrote “Hartmann has deviant sexual preferences similar to those of the suspect in the recent series of rapes in Ogden City.” Zimmerman also noted “Hartmann has lived within close proximity of the victims.”

This 1985 aerial image depicts a portion of Ogden between Washington and Monroe Boulevards. Cary Hartmann was living in the basement of a house on 7th Street in 1986. Two women who lived within walking distance of Hartmann’s residence reported to police they’d been raped by a man who’d entered their homes at night. Photo: Utah Geological Survey, annotated by COLD

The judge approved the request. In a formal report, Zimmerman wrote he monitored Cary’s phone number by pen register from November 23, 1986 through the end of December, 1986.

“Hartmann made approximately 1,900 calls,” Zimmerman wrote. “Approximately 200 of the calls were to friends or acquaintances. The others were picked at random, going through the phone book and picking last names with girls’ first names or first name listed as initials only.”

“He had made literally thousands of those types of calls, which is pretty bizarre.”

Former Weber County Attorney Reed Richards

Pen register devices did not record the content of phone calls. They only captured the number dialed. This meant Zimmerman was not able to listen to what was said on those calls. Instead, he had to himself call numbers he observed on the pen register and speak with women who answered. Some described having received obscene lingerie survey phone calls from an unidentified man.

Zimmerman also confirmed by speaking with multiple victims from the serial rape investigation that some of them had received lingerie survey phone calls prior to being attacked.

This undated photograph shows Cary Hartmann at The Galleon, a nautical-themed bar in Ogden, Utah where Hartmann began working as a part-time bartender in 1986. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

One of the women who’d reported being attacked also told Zimmerman she’d gone to a bar called The Galleon where Cary Hartmann worked. She’d heard Cary’s voice on the intercom and recognized it as the same as the man who’d sexually assaulted her.

Zimmerman presented his findings to Weber County Attorney Reed Richards, who agreed police needed to question Cary.

“We decided we’d find somebody that kind of knew [Cary] from his association with the police,” Richards told COLD. “We landed on Chris Zimmerman.”


Cary Hartmann’s arrest

Detective Zimmerman drafted a search warrant for Cary Hartmann’s condominium. Then, on May 5, 1987, Zimmerman stopped by that condo. He invited Cary to come talk to him at Ogden police headquarters.

When Cary arrived at the office a half-hour later, Zimmerman confronted him about the lingerie survey phone calls. Cary reportedly admitted to making obscene phone calls but denied involvement with any sexual assaults. Zimmerman asked Cary to submit to a polygraph examination, which Cary agreed to do.

COLD obtained a copy of the polygraph examiner’s report, which stated Cary “was deceptive to questions.”

Cary Hartmann underwent a polygraph examination on May 5, 1987 regarding an aggravated sexual assault case in which Cary was a suspect. The examiner concluded Cary’s responses showed deception.

While Cary was taking part in the polygraph, a group of Ogden detectives were serving the search warrant at Cary’s condo. Roy city police detective Jack Bell, who was leading the investigation into the disappearance of Sheree Warren, accompanied them.

“I found a file on Sheree Warren in Carey’s [sic] file cabinet,” Jack wrote in his notes.

Jack was not able to seize those Sheree Warren files from Cary’s condo at that time. The scope of the search warrant was limited to potential evidence in the obscene phone calls case. Court records show the detectives took only an address book, a 1957 Playboy calendar and a 1984 daily reminder journal.

This excerpt from Cary Hartmann’s 1984 daily calendar journal includes pages where Hartmann wrote about employment struggles. Ogden police seized the journal from Hartmann’s condominium while serving a search warrant on May 5, 1987.

Detective Chris Zimmerman decided not arrest Cary Hartmann at that time. He instead asked Cary to take a second polygraph test a few days later, on May 8, 1987, which Cary agreed to do.

The results of that second polygraph were more damaging to Cary than the first, as they indicated deception more strongly than before. At the conclusion of the second examination, an Ogden police detective named John Stubbs interviewed Cary about his suspected role in the serial rapes. Stubbs later wrote in a report that Cary “said that he never had to force anyone to have sex with him.”

Ogden police arrested Cary Hartmann on suspicion of rape that evening, May 8, 1987. Cary’s parents and a girlfriend posted bond on his behalf the following day, allowing Cary to leave the Weber County Jail.

Days later, the Weber County Attorney’s Office filed felony charges against Cary related to four separate allegations of sexual assault. Ogden police obtained an arrest warrant and re-booked Cary into jail on May 12, 1987.


A loud thump then all going quiet

Cary Hartmann’s arrest led to news media coverage, which in turn generated a series of new leads in the Sheree Warren investigation. One of those involved two women who’d lived above Cary at the time of Sheree’s disappearance on Oct. 2, 1987.

Cary had rented an apartment in the basement of a home on Ogden’s 7th Street beginning in May of 1984, after he secured a full-time job at Weber State College. The house belonged to an Ogden High School teacher named Kaye Lynn Terry, who lived on the ground floor with another renter, a fellow schoolteacher named Mary Courney.

Cary Hartmann’s daily reminder journal, seized by Ogden police with a search warrant, shows Hartmann moved into a house on Ogden’s 7th Street on May 18, 1984. Hartmann rented an apartment in the basement of the house.

Kaye Lynn and Mary came forward to speak with Roy police detective Jack Bell on May 13, 1987, the day following Cary Hartmann’s second arrest.

“They claimed that the night Sheree disappeared, she was actually there,” Jack said in an interview for COLD. “They recall hearing a loud thump and then all went quiet.”

Kaye Lynn Terry and Mary Courney provided detailed, typewritten statements to Roy police. The statements, obtained exclusively by COLD, described Cary as “objectionable” and “obnoxious” due to his “constant sexual activity” with multiple women.

Mary Courney said in her statement that the last time she saw Sheree Warren was “on an October night in 1985.” Mary described seeing Sheree’s car parked on the street outside the house. She’d heard Sheree knocking at the side door, which opened into a stairwell that descended to the basement apartment. Mary wrote she could hear Sheree crying as Sheree and Cary walked down those stairs together.

House door screen argument Sheree Warren Cary Hartmann
Cary Hartmann was renting a basement apartment at this home on 7th Street in Ogden in 1985. The apartment was accessed by a stairwell through this door. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

“[Sheree] said … people at work had told her that they had seen [Cary] with another woman,” Mary wrote. “She asked Carey [sic] how he could do that after all she had done for him … that’s when I heard what I thought was him hitting the wall really hard with his fist, then he said ‘[expletive].’”

Kaye Lynn and Mary were not able to tell detective Jack Bell the precise date when they’d overheard this argument, though their statements reveal Mary believed it had occurred on the night Sheree Warren was last seen. Mary wrote they’d only learned Sheree was missing a couple of days later, when they read about it in the newspaper.

“I wrote a short note and stuck it on his door,” Mary wrote in her statement. “He came up the stairs and … asked me if I had seen her. … I was positive I hadn’t seen her since.”


Cary Hartmann’s supper club

Kaye Lynn Terry and Mary Courney told police Cary Hartmann vacated the house on 7th Street in the fall of 1986. He moved into a condo off of 12th Street, near the mouth of Ogden Canyon. That was the condo police searched on May 5, 1987.

Ogden police detectives obtained a second search warrant for that condo on May 14, 1987. Roy police detective Jack Bell once again accompanied them.

“I was invited, which was by [detective Chris] Zimmerman,” Jack told COLD.

The second warrant was more broad than the first. It authorized the detectives to take clothing, firearms, photographs or documents that could potentially link Cary Hartmann to any unsolved sexual assault cases.

Jack Bell returned to Cary’s file cabinet. During the first search, he’d spotted a folder containing notes and newspaper clippings about the disappearance of Sheree Warren there. This time, Jack found a handwritten note that matched the one Mary Courney had described leaving on Cary’s door the day she learned of Sheree’s disappearance.

Police located this handwritten note in Cary Hartmann’s condominium while serving a search warrant on May 14, 1987. The note was written by Hartmann’s former upstairs neighbor, Mary Courney, following the disappearance of Sheree Warren.

Jack also located a photo album containing pictures of Cary and a group of friends that allegedly went by the name “dinner club” or “supper club.” Some of the photos included members of the Ogden-area law enforcement community. Some were also sexual in nature.

The supper club discovery, together with the reports of Kaye Lynn Terry and Mary Courney, led Jack Bell to wonder if Sheree Warren might have made a discovery about Cary Hartmann shortly before her disappearance.

“Whether it was the fact he was raping these women or something, or had other girlfriends, or the supper club, or something that she confronted him about and he whopped her with something,” Jack said. “There’s theories, but they’re just theories.”


Hear what else police found in Cary Hartmann’s condo in COLD season 3, episode 4: The Supper Club

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Ben Kuebrich
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/season-3-transcript/the-supper-club-full-transcript/

Ep 3: Cherish the Love


Roy City police detective Jack Bell had two possible persons of interest in the unsolved disappearance of Sheree Warren: her estranged husband, Charles Warren, and her boyfriend, Cary Hartmann.

Sheree had left her workplace in Salt Lake City, Utah on the evening of Oct. 2, 1985. She never arrived home. No one seemed to know where Sheree had gone. Her case had fallen to detective Jack Bell because Sheree had been living with her parents in Roy while separated from her husband.

Roy police detective Jack Bell speaks to KSL 5 TV about the disappearance of Sheree Warren in a November 13, 1985 news story. Bell was the initial lead investigator on the Sheree Warren case. Photo: KSL TV archive

Jack first interviewed Charles “Chuck” Warren on Oct. 4, 1985, but Chuck soon stopped cooperating. Police asked Chuck to submit to a polygraph, but Chuck refused.

That setback hadn’t deterred Jack. The detective next questioned Chuck Warren’s first wife, Alice, whom Chuck’d reunited with after separating from Sheree in May of 1985.

“I was surprised to find out that he was back with his ex so soon after him and Sheree had split up,” Jack Bell said in an interview for COLD.

Alice provided her ex-husband an alibi for the night of Sheree Warren’s disappearance.

“Alice says that night that [Sheree] disappeared, [Chuck Warren] was home with her all night,” Jack said.

Police viewed Chuck Warren as the most likely suspect in Sheree Warren’s disappearance at the time. Confirming Chuck’s whereabouts on the night Sheree was last seen was a critical step in the investigation. Jack’s notes, obtained exclusively by COLD, show he asked Alice to submit to a polygraph examination. Alice at first agreed, but backed out after consulting with Chuck.

Former Roy City police detective Jack Bell describes Charles “Chuck” Warren, one of two named suspects in the Oct. 2, 1985 disappearance of Sheree Warren.

Cary Hartmann and the Sheree Warren investigation

Detective Jack Bell had more success with Cary Hartmann, the man Sheree had started dating after separating from her husband. Jack first made contact with Cary on Oct. 3, 1985, the day after Sheree disappeared. Jack’s reports and notes reveal Cary told the detective he’d been at a bar with a friend the prior evening. Cary reportedly said he didn’t know what had happened to Sheree.

Jack had no reason to doubt Cary’s account. The detective had known Cary for years. They’d attended the same school, Bonneville High, as teenagers.

Cary Hartmann Jack Bell Bonneville High School yearbook photo picture
Cary Hartmann and Jack Bell’s 1965 Bonneville High School yearbook photos. Hartmann and Bell were acquaintances in school, but did not associate closely.

“I was never friends with Cary, but we knew each other,” Jack said. “I hadn’t seen or talked to him since I left Bonneville [High School].”

Jack Bell had also been aware Cary Hartmann served in the Ogden Police Department’s reserve corps during a brief stint in the early 1980s.

Case records reveal Cary kept close tabs on the investigation. They show Cary dropped in at Roy police headquarters on Oct. 11, 1985 and again met with his old acquaintance, Jack Bell. Cary brought a box of missing persons fliers with him, having enlisted the help of a relative to have the fliers printed. They showed a picture of Sheree, as well as basic information about her disappearance.

“They were on yellow paper,” Jack recalled. “He left some of them here that we posted around.”

Sheree Warren missing flier reward Cary Hartmann
This photo illustration shows the missing person flier Cary Hartmann created after his girlfriend, Sheree Warren, disappeared on Oct. 2, 1985. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Cary also showed Jack notes regarding a conversation he’d had with one of his co-workers at Weber State College, where Cary worked as an HVAC technician. The co-worker had reportedly dreamt about Sheree’s demise.

“He says Sheree’s with a big blond guy and another tall thin guy with dark hair and that they are in the mountains somewhere around some red cliffs, which Cary thinks is Big Rock Candy Mountain,” Jack Bell’s notes read.

Cary Hartmann coworker dream psychic Sheree Warren murder notes
These handwritten notes taken from Cary Hartmann’s condo during a police search in May of 1987 detail a dream one of Hartmann’s coworkers reportedly had regarding the disappearance of Sheree Warren. Photo: Weber County Attorney’s Office

Jack did not place much weight on this account. He showed more interest in what Cary had to say about Sheree’s estranged husband, Chuck Warren.

“Cary said the only thing that [Chuck and Sheree] are fighting over is child support,” Jack said.

According to Jack’s notes, Cary claimed Chuck had made threatening comments to Sheree during a confrontation at her workplace a few weeks prior to her disappearance. Jack found the story to be credible at the time, though he would later come to doubt portions of Cary’s account.

“Cary was feeding me full of information about Chuck and a lot of it seemed legitimate,” Jack said.


A psychic letter about Sheree Warren

Sheree Warren’s car, a maroon 1984 Toyota Corolla, surfaced several weeks later in Las Vegas, Nevada. Las Vegas Metro Police impounded the Corolla. They obtained written permission to search the car from the registered owner, Chuck Warren, before scouring it for evidence.

Sheree Warren car Toyota Corolla 1984 Las Vegas Aladdin
KSL TV in Salt Lake City, Utah aired a story about the discovery of Sheree Warren’s car in Las Vegas, Nevada on Nov. 13, 1985. The car had been abandoned in a parking lot behind The Aladdin. Photo: KSL TV archive

The car’s discovery drew media coverage, both in Las Vegas and in Salt Lake City. KSL 5 TV in Salt Lake City broadcast a story about the discovery of Sheree’s car on Nov. 13, 1985.

Five days later, the TV station received an anonymous letter from a person who claimed to have had dreams about a woman’s murder. The letter mentioned a “beautiful young mother” and a “maroon import,” in possible reference to Sheree Warren and her Toyota Corolla.

“Her body is in a different area from where attack occurred, near a place of trailers (campground?),” the letter said. “Body rolled well under a lg evergreen growing on a jut.”

KSL provided a copy of the letter to Roy City police detective Jack Bell, who in turn shared the details of the letter with Cary Hartmann.

Cary recruited a private investigator. He asked the PI, Michael Neumeyer, for help locating Sheree. Cary recorded a statement for Neumeyer on Nov. 25, 1985. In it, Cary referenced both his co-worker’s dream and the psychic dream letter sent to KSL.

Detective Jack Bell did not consider the psychic dream stories legitimate leads on their own. He continued to believe Chuck Warren was the prime suspect in Sheree’s disappearance. But Chuck Warren still wasn’t talking, and Jack’s investigation stalled at the end of 1985.


Weber State College’s swimming pool window

A student at Weber State College named Jaimie Schmalz encountered Cary Hartmann on campus several months later, in 1986. That encounter would eventually have a significant impact on the Sheree Warren case.

Jaimie’s mother was a cosmetologist, who Cary Hartmann frequented for hair cuts. Jaimie first met Cary at her mother’s salon. She bumped into him again during the early 1980s at a Hilton hotel bar where she worked called the Electric Alley.

In an interview for COLD, Jaimie recalled talking to her mom about Cary after speaking to him at the Electric Alley.

“I remember her saying something like ‘just be careful with him,’” Jaimie said.

Jaimie subsequently left the job at the Electric Alley and enrolled at Weber State College, where she took a position at the campus library. She told COLD she was leaving the library one day in 1986 when she again saw Cary Hartmann. Jaimie said Cary approached her and struck up a conversation.

“He says ‘hey, did you know that there’s a window in the swimming pool at the aquatics center,’” Jaimie said.

Cary’s work on the college’s maintenance staff meant he had access to areas that were not open to the public. These included a network of underground tunnels that linked all of the buildings on campus, as well as the lower level of the Swenson Gymnasium. The maintenance area below the gym housed the pool’s pumps and filters. One wall in the maintenance room also held a window, which provided a view into the pool from just below the water level.

Weber State College University Swenson Gymnasium gym swimming pool
A window below water level in this corner of the Swenson Gymnasium lap pool at Weber State University once allowed people to view swimmers from a utility room in the basement of the gym. The window, likely installed to allow coaches to critique the strokes of student athletes, was removed during subsequent remodel. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

Jaimie said Cary invited her to go see the window. She agreed and reportedly followed Cary through a locked door into the basement of the gym.

“We go in there and it’s underground,” Jaimie said.

Cary reportedly pointed out the window.

“And he’s like ‘see, anybody could watch you at any time and they could see what you’re doing in the swimming pool,’” Jaimie said.

Jaimie recalled feeling confused as to why Cary would want to show her the swimming pool window. She said Cary did not make any unwanted advances while they were alone in the dim and isolated gymnasium basement. In retrospect, she questioned Cary’s motive for taking her into the bowels of the building.

“I don’t know if I was supposed to have a certain reaction, but I just thought it was kind of strange,” Jaimie said.

Weber State College University Swensen Gymnasium gym pool basement
The basement level of the Swenson Gymnasium on the campus of Weber State University, seen here on June 10, 2022, houses pumps and filters for the swimming pool. A window in this utility room once allowed people to view into the pool from below the water level. Photo: Dave Cawley, KSL Podcasts

COLD has discovered Weber State College’s student newspaper, The Signpost, published an article during this same period about an unidentified man who’d repeatedly entered the women’s locker room at the gym. Campus police told The Signpost they’d also received reports of a man masturbating while watching swimmers through the swimming pool’s window. COLD has been unable to verify whether that man was ever identified, arrested or charged with a crime.


Cary Hartmann’s lingerie survey phone calls

Police in Ogden were at the same time investigating a rash of obscene phone calls they believed were the work of a single man. The caller dialed women and claimed to be conducting a survey about fashion and lingerie.

Jaimie Schmalz, the Weber State student who described going to see the swimming pool window with Cary Hartmann, was among the obscene caller’s targets. She received one such lingerie survey call in June of 1986.

“This man says ‘hi, I’m doing a survey on lady’s lingerie and women’s apparel,’” Jaimie said. “One of the very first things he said is ‘ok, so we’re going to talk about lady’s underwear.”

The man’s voice sounded familiar, but Jaimie couldn’t immediately place it. The caller continued, asking Jaimie’s preferences about nylons, pajamas and other clothing. The questions became gradually more invasive, until the man asked Jaimie to describe her breasts.

“I said ‘what the hell does that have to do with lady’s lingerie?’ And he just had this comeback,” Jaimie said.

Jaimie Schmalz describes receiving an obscene lingerie survey phone call from Cary Hartmann during 1986.

Jaimie suspected the caller was not conducting a legitimate survey. A named popped into her mind.

“All the sudden I realize, this sounds like Cary Hartmann,’” Jaimie said.

A surge of fear and anger ran through her. Jaimie was aware from news reports Ogden City police were at that time searching for a serial rape suspect who’d repeatedly attacked multiple women inside their own homes at night. The unidentified man seemed to target women who were single or separated, with young children. Jaimie fit that profile. She feared the obscene phone call might be a prelude to an attack.

Jaimie called an Ogden police detective named Chris Zimmerman. She described the lingerie survey call she’d received and told Zimmerman she believed the man on the other end of the line had been Cary Hartmann.


The Ogden City Rapist investigation

Detective Chris Zimmerman knew Cary Hartmann. Cary had served in the Ogden Police Department reserve corps in 1982 and 1983, where he’d directly interacted with Zimmerman. Cary had also gone on hunting outings with Zimmerman and other Ogden police officers.

In late October of 1986, Zimmerman received a phone call from an informant who provided information that further pointed to Cary as a suspect in the ongoing string of unsolved sexual assaults in Ogden. Police and the news media had dubbed the unidentified man The Ogden City Rapist.

Zimmerman recalled the tip he’d received several months earlier from Jaimie Schmalz, who’d told him she believed Cary Hartmann was the lingerie survey caller. Zimmerman contacted Jaimie again. They agreed to meet for a formal interview on Oct. 31, 1986.

“That’s when he told me that they were looking into [Cary Hartmann],” Jaimie said. “They thought maybe he was the Ogden City Rapist. And I was scared, scared to death.”

Cary Hartmann lingerie survey phone call obscene caller
Ogden police detective Chris Zimmerman’s notes from his Oct. 31, 1986 interview with Jaimie Schmalz detail the specific questions an obscene caller asked under the guise of conducting a lingerie survey phone call. Schmalz identified the man’s voice as that of Cary Hartmann.

Zimmerman also shared his suspicion with Roy City police detective Jack Bell. Jack was still leading the investigation into Sheree Warren’s disappearance a year prior, but had exhausted his leads. The suggestion Cary Hartmann could be a suspect in the Ogden City Rapist investigation ignited new suspicions about his potential involvement in Sheree’s case.

“I had started looking at Cary pretty serious, because I was getting all this other stupid crap that I knew wasn’t coming from Chuck and legitimate like the psychics,” Jack said.

Jack, who had at first believed Sheree’s estranged husband Chuck Warren was responsible for her disappearance, began to wonder if he’d missed clues pointing instead to Cary Hartmann.

“I missed quite a bit to start with, because Cary wanted me to miss that and go after Chuck,” Jack said.


Hear Cary Hartmann’s account of Sheree Warren’s disappearance in COLD season 3, episode 3: Cherish the Love

Episode credits
Research, writing and hosting: Dave Cawley
Audio production: Ben Kuebrich
Audio mixing: Ben Kuebrich
Cold main score composition: Michael Bahnmiller
Additional scoring: Allison Leyton-Brown
KSL executive producer: Sheryl Worsley
Workhouse Media executive producers: Paul Anderson, Nick Panella, Andrew Greenwood
Amazon Music and Wondery team: Morgan Jones, Candace Manriquez Wrenn, Clare Chambers, Lizzie Bassett, Kale Bittner, Alison Ver Meulen
Episode transcript: https://thecoldpodcast.com/uncategorized/cherish-the-love-full-transcript/